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Peace
10 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

Because by singling out "African-American" men, you made it about race.  That's my point.  Why can't people stop making things about race??  I don't get it.

The left continually does this regarding everything these days, and it's pretty frustrating to watch, specifically because it's racist and people don't even realize it.  Affirmative Action is racist.

I'm not saying you're racist.  I'm just trying to show another perspective.

Well the thread is about white nationalism and Catholics. Should it really be that odd that race is part of the thread?

How is Affirmative Action racist? I am not sure if you know what it is and who it benefits.

As for why we can’t stop making things about race, the reasons are deeply historical I think. Ideas of racial superiority and inferiority have been part of our country’s makeup since the very beginning and we obviously have a very sad and troubled history when it comes to race relations. I don’t think it’s realistic to put on blinders and pretend that race does not still play a large role in our everyday interactions. Just from the perspective of s black American, I’m not sure if you really understand the amount of disrespect that we still face day in and day out from larger society.

I think that we have made great progress even from the time when I was a kid, and that wealth is more of a factor than race nowadays. And I do think that the media blows certain things out of proportion and injects race where it need not be injected, but at the same time we still have plenty to work out in terms of racial issues. Anytime you have people who want to have progress there are people who want to silence them and cause them to leave things the way they are without complaining. That was certainly the case with MLK and the early civil rights activists, where people wanted to silence as well.

16 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

Nice job turning that around.  My point still stands.

Sorry, not into the latest lingo.  Meaning?

This is Phatmass my friend.

Edited by Peace

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Seven77
On 8/9/2019 at 4:39 PM, fides' Jack said:

Because by singling out "African-American" men, you made it about race.  That's my point.  Why can't people stop making things about race??  I don't get it.

The left continually does this regarding everything these days, and it's pretty frustrating to watch, specifically because it's racist and people don't even realize it.  Affirmative Action is racist.

I'm not saying you're racist.  I'm just trying to show another perspective.

My friend, I never singled out African-American men. I was open to having women join as well. Also, just because I sought people considered to be a minority does not at all mean that I was opposed to  having people join who are not considered to be a minority. That is a faulty assumption. Also,  the Protestant websites I mentioned also had members who were white and I actually attempted to have them join as well.

As Peace mentioned, this is a thread regarding race. And I think it's kind of funny that you are saying people make everything out to be about race.  I take what you're saying that there are a number of the population of our society who may seem to be, or are, making everything about race. That goes for both left and right… I hate using those labels but there it is. However, those on the left… Can you blame them actually? It's hard not to, given the history of our country.

I think that when we say that affirmative action is racist, and make such  statements that don't put much thought into why people do what they do, etc. just make the pendulum swing To the opposite direction. These statements don't help and they make things  worse.  And it's  erroneous to say that affirmative action is racist…   What you Are really saying is that  "affirmative action is prejudiced. "

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fides' Jack
On 8/10/2019 at 3:27 PM, Seven77 said:

My friend, I never singled out African-American men. I was open to having women join as well. Also, just because I sought people considered to be a minority does not at all mean that I was opposed to  having people join who are not considered to be a minority. That is a faulty assumption. Also,  the Protestant websites I mentioned also had members who were white and I actually attempted to have them join as well.

As Peace mentioned, this is a thread regarding race. And I think it's kind of funny that you are saying people make everything out to be about race.  I take what you're saying that there are a number of the population of our society who may seem to be, or are, making everything about race. That goes for both left and right… I hate using those labels but there it is. However, those on the left… Can you blame them actually? It's hard not to, given the history of our country.

I think that when we say that affirmative action is racist, and make such  statements that don't put much thought into why people do what they do, etc. just make the pendulum swing To the opposite direction. These statements don't help and they make things  worse.  And it's  erroneous to say that affirmative action is racist…   What you Are really saying is that  "affirmative action is prejudiced. "

You're right, for some reason I added the word "men".  Maybe I'm sexist... :)

Given that racism is a form of prejudice, I do believe that affirmative action is prejudiced.  But I was very deliberate in my use of the word "racist".  Affirmative action is completely racist.  It might not have started that way.  If you want to argue that it was needed at the time, I would say that's possibly arguable.  But from the very beginning the result has been disastrous and has only hurt minority communities.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was put into place intentionally to keep minority communities down.  I say again, affirmative action is racist.

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fides' Jack
On 8/10/2019 at 1:15 AM, Peace said:

How is Affirmative Action racist? I am not sure if you know what it is and who it benefits.

Because it specifically targets minority groups to give them benefits based on the color of their skin rather than what they're capable of accomplishing.  Again, it places undue focus on skin color rather than ideas, beliefs, actions, skills, IQ, or any other possible indicator of real achievement or potential.  It's really no better than segregation.

It's weird that you say "I am not sure if you know what it is and who it benefits."  Literally the only thing before now that I've said about affirmative action is that it's racist.  So this comment doesn't make any sense, at least not until you've gotten my response back to your question (see the preceding paragraph).

On 8/10/2019 at 1:15 AM, Peace said:

and that wealth is more of a factor than race nowadays

More of a factor of what, exactly?

On 8/10/2019 at 3:27 PM, Seven77 said:

Also, just because I sought people considered to be a minority does not at all mean that I was opposed to  having people join who are not considered to be a minority. That is a faulty assumption.

I didn't assume that in the least.  The thought never crossed my mind to think you might be opposed to certain people joining the forum.  That's kind of a weird thing to say.  But based on that statement, I'm guessing you really have no idea what I'm talking about regarding making things about race...  My problem is that you said you wanted to bring African Americans to this site.  Not people in general, but a certain group of people, specifically because of the color of their skin.

 

Le sigh...  Doesn't matter.  It's an internet forum.  I have a feeling nobody here really get's what I'm trying to get across, anyway.

On 8/10/2019 at 1:15 AM, Peace said:

This is Phatmass my friend.

I have no idea what meaning to take from this.  

Edited by fides' Jack

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Seven77
21 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

You're right, for some reason I added the word "men".  Maybe I'm sexist... :)

Given that racism is a form of prejudice, I do believe that affirmative action is prejudiced.  But I was very deliberate in my use of the word "racist".  Affirmative action is completely racist.  It might not have started that way.  If you want to argue that it was needed at the time, I would say that's possibly arguable.  But from the very beginning the result has been disastrous and has only hurt minority communities.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was put into place intentionally to keep minority communities down.  I say again, affirmative action is racist.

My point was, according to the standard definition of racism, "minorities" cannot be racist. At the most, they can be [racially] prejudiced. 

21 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

Because it specifically targets minority groups to give them benefits based on the color of their skin rather than what they're capable of accomplishing.  Again, it places undue focus on skin color rather than ideas, beliefs, actions, skills, IQ, or any other possible indicator of real achievement or potential.  It's really no better than segregation.

Because people were discriminated against because of their skin color, without any consideration of their abilities and qualities, affirmative action exists. 

21 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

I didn't assume that in the least.  The thought never crossed my mind to think you might be opposed to certain people joining the forum.  That's kind of a weird thing to say.  But based on that statement, I'm guessing you really have no idea what I'm talking about regarding making things about race...  My problem is that you said you wanted to bring African Americans to this site.  Not people in general, but a certain group of people, specifically because of the color of their skin.

 

Le sigh...  Doesn't matter.  It's an internet forum.  I have a feeling nobody here really get's what I'm trying to get across, anyway.

I have no idea what meaning to take from this.  

I wanted to bring African Americans to this site, in addition to others, because there were not at a lot of them here. Why you seem to have a problem with this, i cannot understand.  

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Peace
On 8/12/2019 at 5:29 PM, fides' Jack said:

Because it specifically targets minority groups to give them benefits based on the color of their skin rather than what they're capable of accomplishing.  Again, it places undue focus on skin color rather than ideas, beliefs, actions, skills, IQ, or any other possible indicator of real achievement or potential.  It's really no better than segregation.

It's weird that you say "I am not sure if you know what it is and who it benefits."  Literally the only thing before now that I've said about affirmative action is that it's racist.  So this comment doesn't make any sense, at least not until you've gotten my response back to your question (see the preceding paragraph).

More of a factor of what, exactly?

I didn't assume that in the least.  The thought never crossed my mind to think you might be opposed to certain people joining the forum.  That's kind of a weird thing to say.  But based on that statement, I'm guessing you really have no idea what I'm talking about regarding making things about race...  My problem is that you said you wanted to bring African Americans to this site.  Not people in general, but a certain group of people, specifically because of the color of their skin.

 

Le sigh...  Doesn't matter.  It's an internet forum.  I have a feeling nobody here really get's what I'm trying to get across, anyway.

I have no idea what meaning to take from this.  

Affirmative Action programs have helped more white people than black people. And the focus of the programs is to include a diverse group of people at the same institution, so I am sure why it can be considered as bad as segregation. It's not accurate to equate the two. To characterize the programs as benefitting only racial minority groups is inaccurate.

As for income being more of a factor, I meant more of a factor in determining outcomes with respect to things like educational achievement, career success,   incarceration rates and perhaps some other things like that.

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fides' Jack
On 8/13/2019 at 12:31 PM, Seven77 said:

My point was, according to the standard definition of racism, "minorities" cannot be racist. At the most, they can be [racially] prejudiced. 

Because people were discriminated against because of their skin color, without any consideration of their abilities and qualities, affirmative action exists. 

I wanted to bring African Americans to this site, in addition to others, because there were not at a lot of them here. Why you seem to have a problem with this, i cannot understand.  

I disagree, minorities can absolutely be racist.  Tell me where you find your "standard definition".  Here's the one I just found: "Racism is the belief in the superiority of one race over another."  Any person (of any color) who believes that a skin color is superior or inferior, simply because of the color of their skin, is a racist.  If a white person thinks black people are better than white people, he's a racist.  If an asian person thinks brown people are better than black people, he's a racist.

I agree with your statement regarding why affirmative action exists in the first place.  My point is that it was poorly conceived and executed worse, and is now (if not always has been) a racist policy.

If you wanted to bring African Americans here, in addition to others, then why single them out by race?  That's what I don't get.  What's the point of saying "African Americans" in the first place?  Why mention the race, if others were always included in the statement?  You hadn't mentioned the "others" before...

On 8/17/2019 at 11:35 PM, Peace said:

Affirmative Action programs have helped more white people than black people. And the focus of the programs is to include a diverse group of people at the same institution, so I am sure why it can be considered as bad as segregation. It's not accurate to equate the two. To characterize the programs as benefitting only racial minority groups is inaccurate.

As for income being more of a factor, I meant more of a factor in determining outcomes with respect to things like educational achievement, career success,   incarceration rates and perhaps some other things like that.

"Affirmative Action programs have helped more white people than black people."  

Exactly my point.  Do you still think it's not racist?  In fact, very, very little has hurt the minority communities more than affirmative action.

I do agree that income is a huge factor for those kinds of things.  Where I'm guessing we disagree is that I believe anybody in the U.S. has the opportunity to work hard, live better lives, and get richer.  It's the welfare programs and government intervention that keeps them down, largely by incentivizing single-parent families, but also by ensuring that as many people as possible don't try to overcome their own circumstances.

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