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linate

should liberal catholics stay or leave the church?

should liberal catholics stay or leave the church?   

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Lilllabettt

1. I may get heat for saying this. But imo, God prefers an honest atheist to someone who mouths the creed on Sunday, but in their heart doesn't believe. Christianity is not a law based religion. That means, membership matters less what you do and more what you believe. People that don't believe in Catholicism and the teaching of the church should not be faking it on Sunday. Note, I'm not talking about struggling with a teaching. I'm talking about people who flat out say, the Church is wrong, I'm right, and the Church needs to change. 

2. The church is a hospital for sinners - people in need of redemption, because they recognize their sin. It's a hospital for tax collectors that beat their breast. It's not a place for people who are unconcerned with their sin. In many ways it's better to be outside the church, and counted as an unbeliever, than it is to be inside and unconcerned by sin. If you don't believe x is a sin, and are "at peace" living with x ... guess what. The church should discipline you and cut you off. Not out of pride, but mercy.  Jesus loves outsiders. He absolutely shreds insiders who aren't convicted of their sin. 

3. Yes, baptism is irreversible, we are permanently Catholic etc. Believe me I know my opinion is not popular at the highest level... but I honestly believe God prefers honesty... and authentic conversion is more likely,  when people are honest about who they are in their hearts.

***the above applies to conservatives just as much as liberals. It's not easy for conservatives to take in PFs magisterium.  They need to try, or else yeah ... be honest about who you are ****

 

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BarbaraTherese

The Church is indeed a hospital for sinners and all and sundry - everyone - is welcome at Mass, no matter their sin great or small, hidden or known.  We know we do not have the right to judge anyone whatsoever, nor state who can go to Mass and who should not.  We certainly do not have the right to judge anyone's state of soul.

What makes my sin less than another's?  My sin  might be twofold.  The sins I have committed and the sin of passing judgement on others.  

Quote

 

Matthew Chapter 7

"Stop judging, that you may not be judged.For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.

Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?"

 

 

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dominicansoul

I voted leave if they aren't willing to convert and are actively working to change the Church into their own image...

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chrysostom

If there is a conflict between what you do and what you think, which do you change? It depends. "Liberal Catholic" is a bit vague for this, so let's pick one variety of liberal Catholic, who has both of these things:

a. unbelief in Catholic doctrine
b. persistence in going to Mass

Which do you change? It's easier to stop going to Mass. That resolves the conflict in one way - there's less of a sense of hypocrisy or some such thing. But now you've left the Body of Christ! As far as I understand it, that simply cannot be a good thing. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Stay. It might take you 'till the last rites to come around (I hear this often happens in end-of-life situations!) but stay. It's harder to change unbelief, but that is what should change, if we're talking about should. Go to Confession! There's more than enough grace there to get the hard things done.

Let's propose another variety of liberal Catholic:

a. persists in actions contrary to Catholic moral teaching (i.e. sins)
b. persists in going to Mass

Uh-oh, you found me...I better go to confession.

If you are aware of unconfessed mortal sin, go to Confession! If you find it difficult to go to Confession, then pray for the grace to do so and in the meantime don't receive Holy Communion - but still come to Mass. You can always do that.

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Josh

"Liberal" Catholics can be who you wouldn't expect. Like those who don't accept what the Church now teaches on the death penalty in the Catechism. Folks like Madrid, Coffin, and Marshall. Funny how that works. The Church isn't a select groups private club. Some wish it were but that's not the case. 

Also everything Lilllabettt said.

Edited by Josh

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Josh
3 hours ago, chrysostom said:

If there is a conflict between what you do and what you think, which do you change? It depends. "Liberal Catholic" is a bit vague for this, so let's pick one variety of liberal Catholic, who has both of these things:

a. unbelief in Catholic doctrine
b. persistence in going to Mass

Which do you change? It's easier to stop going to Mass. That resolves the conflict in one way - there's less of a sense of hypocrisy or some such thing. But now you've left the Body of Christ! As far as I understand it, that simply cannot be a good thing. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Stay. It might take you 'till the last rites to come around (I hear this often happens in end-of-life situations!) but stay. It's harder to change unbelief, but that is what should change, if we're talking about should. Go to Confession! There's more than enough grace there to get the hard things done.

Let's propose another variety of liberal Catholic:

a. persists in actions contrary to Catholic moral teaching (i.e. sins)
b. persists in going to Mass

Uh-oh, you found me...I better go to confession.

If you are aware of unconfessed mortal sin, go to Confession! If you find it difficult to go to Confession, then pray for the grace to do so and in the meantime don't receive Holy Communion - but still come to Mass. You can always do that.

Great points made here as well.

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dominicansoul
On 9/12/2019 at 1:35 PM, dominicansoul said:

I voted leave if they aren't willing to convert and are actively working to change the Church into their own image...

What am I talking about???  They’ve infiltrated the Church for decades that’s why only 30 percent of Catholics believe in the Body of Christ...

That’s  why today at my catechism teachers meeting one teacher got angry at me when I told her she needs to go to confession for missing Mass last Sunday without a good reason... 

thats why my parish priest was caught with his pantaloons down at a scandal ridden hotel, he had been beaten by the person who he was meeting there and had drugs all around him in the room... 

thats why Latin Masses were suppressed for so long...and still are not available in most diocese...

thats why we have a majority of lukewarm Catholics who are more offended by the teachings of our Church (especially the sexual teachings) than they are about abortion loving politicians...

thats why nobody knows what the hells going on anymore in the Vatican and with our hierarchy which is loaded with active homosexuals and actively waging war against the teachings of Christ...

Leftists don’t leave the Church, they’ve completely taken over...

...why would they leave now?? 

This is what Pope St Leo XIII warned us about! Devout Catholics WAKE UP!  We are in a spiritual war beyond all spiritual wars.  There is a reason you and I were born in this time...either you are with Christ or against Him...you choose wisely... 

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linate
3 hours ago, dominicansoul said:

What am I talking about???  They’ve infiltrated the Church for decades that’s why only 30 percent of Catholics believe in the Body of Christ...

That’s  why today at my catechism teachers meeting one teacher got angry at me when I told her she needs to go to confession for missing Mass last Sunday without a good reason... 

thats why my parish priest was caught with his pantaloons down at a scandal ridden hotel, he had been beaten by the person who he was meeting there and had drugs all around him in the room... 

thats why Latin Masses were suppressed for so long...and still are not available in most diocese...

thats why we have a majority of lukewarm Catholics who are more offended by the teachings of our Church (especially the sexual teachings) than they are about abortion loving politicians...

thats why nobody knows what the hells going on anymore in the Vatican and with our hierarchy which is loaded with active homosexuals and actively waging war against the teachings of Christ...

Leftists don’t leave the Church, they’ve completely taken over...

...why would they leave now?? 

This is what Pope St Leo XIII warned us about! Devout Catholics WAKE UP!  We are in a spiritual war beyond all spiritual wars.  There is a reason you and I were born in this time...either you are with Christ or against Him...you choose wisely... 


so would you be okay if seventy percent of catholics left the church, given most are liberal or not devout? i too have heard that like only a third of catholics believe in the eucharist, so it would be a monumental shift. 

i wonder about people like me, though. if the catholic church and orthodox church got together like with the 'ratzinger proposal' that pope benedict used to push for, i could see being on the orthodox side, given i protest the idea of papal infallibility, but part of the unified church

 

 

if the catholic church was the same as it was in the first few centuries, i would probably be a catholic. catholics like to act like the church is the same today as it's always been, but that's not true. st augustine is my kind of catholic...
"Augustine had ample opportunity in his actions and vast literary works to express belief in the supreme jurisdiction of Rome. Of all the Fathers of the Church, Augustine wrote the most on church unity and authority. He wrote 75 chapters to the separated Donatists in "The Unity of the Church", using all sort of arguments to urge them to return to communion. Of the necessity of communion with Rome, or Rome as a centre of unity, or Rome's supreme authority, there is not one single word." (6) The silence is deafening."

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