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CuriositasEtFidem

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CuriositasEtFidem
Just now, Peace said:

Well in that case neither does your species. You think that you a dog today therefore you are a dog. You said "Woof woof. Bark bark." when you got out of bed. And you changed your name to Fido.

H...how- how is that even remotely the same?

Well, this thread has been very informative :). If anything, I've learned that I'm now even more reluctant to engage in Catholic circles openly as myself. I think I'll just lurk for a day or two around here, and maybe then reply to some more stuff that isn't quite as... venomous? I don't know what some of these replies are but they're not friendly, that's for sure

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21 minutes ago, CuriositasEtFidem said:

H...how- how is that even remotely the same?

Well, this thread has been very informative :). If anything, I've learned that I'm now even more reluctant to engage in Catholic circles openly as myself. I think I'll just lurk for a day or two around here, and maybe then reply to some more stuff that isn't quite as... venomous? I don't know what some of these replies are but they're not friendly, that's for sure

Look, you are wrong. You wanted to be treated like a man, no? Well, there you go. You got treated like one. No kid gloves and crying to mama.

I didn't appreciate your FIFY. That was some passive-aggressive BS. If you want to refer to yourself as a new gender, go for it. But I don't have to call you a man just because you feel like one today. Get over it.

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5 minutes ago, Peace said:

Look, you are wrong. You wanted to be treated like a man, no? Well, there you go. You got treated like one. No kid gloves and crying to mama.

I didn't appreciate your FIFY. That was some passive-aggressive BS. If you want to refer to yourself as a new gender, go for it. But I don't have to call you a man just because you feel like one today. Get over it.

Now this is outright nasty. I may have been a little passive-aggressive, I admit that, but you have absolutely no right to be this rude to me. Aaaannd that's the end of my interactions with you.

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1 hour ago, CuriositasEtFidem said:

Here we come again to the theory of performative gender. 

Honestly, my gender's validity doesn't depend on what other people think, respectfully. I'll just go on being myself (Sorry if that sounded a little sharp, I'm very tired right now)

I don't think that's true at all.

I think if you're honest you'll admit that most of your satisfaction in acting out "manhood" (as you've been conditioned to see it - suit and tie? Boyish sounding name?)  Is derived from passing as male bodied - being appraised as a man by society. 

I think your satisfaction depends almost entirely on what people think. Otherwise you wouldn't give a rats behind if people thought you were a man or used male pronouns for you. You would just be yourself, a woman who enjoys Masculine gender roles.  But the opposite is true- it's very important that you can think of yourself as a man and that society treat you as if you were a man. 

Whether this is right or wrong isn't the question. Obvs I think it's toxic masculinity but my guess is you think it's fine. If you think manhood is defined some other way than dressing speaking "like a man" by all means share, otherwise I think it's clear you think male gender stereotypes = manhood. Right or wrong isn't the question, but when did you first develop this understanding? 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, CuriositasEtFidem said:

Now this is outright nasty. I may have been a little passive-aggressive, I admit that, but you have absolutely no right to be this rude to me. Aaaannd that's the end of my interactions with you.

 

It's true though... if you want to play the man's gender role, in our society that means having thick skin,  letting insults roll of your back, not complaining about hardship or mistreatment and not crying in general. 

Now me, I reject the idea that these gender stereotypes have anything to do with manhood. But your perspective is that doing gender stereotypes IS what makes one a man. If that's what you think, and if you're a man....the above script is the part you'll need to play.

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47 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

 

It's true though... if you want to play the man's gender role, in our society that means having thick skin,  letting insults roll of your back, not complaining about hardship or mistreatment and not crying in general. 

Now me, I reject the idea that these gender stereotypes have anything to do with manhood. But your perspective is that doing gender stereotypes IS what makes one a man. If that's what you think, and if you're a man....the above script is the part you'll need to play.

Sure, but that doesn't mean I can't stand up for myself.

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3 hours ago, CuriositasEtFidem said:

Sure, but that doesn't mean I can't stand up for myself.

Ugh!!!!! This was said tongue in cheek but you went for it!

Not crying has nothing to do with manhood!  Crying doesn't make one any less of a man...

Just FYI, men, and I mean males who are socialized as men, suffer horribly because of the perpetuation of these gender stereotypes, eg that they are not allowed to cry.

You don't know what that's like because as a female you've always been allowed tears! 

Just ugh!!!! I'm sorry but I can't!!! Ugh!!!!

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8 hours ago, Lilllabettt said:

Ugh!!!!! This was said tongue in cheek but you went for it!

Not crying has nothing to do with manhood!  Crying doesn't make one any less of a man...

Just FYI, men, and I mean males who are socialized as men, suffer horribly because of the perpetuation of these gender stereotypes, eg that they are not allowed to cry.

You don't know what that's like because as a female you've always been allowed tears! 

Just ugh!!!! I'm sorry but I can't!!! Ugh!!!!

This is some feminist BS if I have ever heard it. If you want to spend half your day sobbing on a sofa while you and your girlfriend eat a vat of mint-chocolate-chip ice cream go for it. Men, and society at large, are not harmed by the way that men handle our emotions. We handle our emotions in a way that is optimal for men, and society at large. We don't emote like women therefore we are defective and harming ourselves. If only we could be more like women! What a feminist trope that must be blindly accepted in this ridiculous culture that ya'll want form.

You want to see some men cry:

There you go. We are all so much better now.

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3 hours ago, Peace said:

This is some feminist BS if I have ever heard it. If you want to spend half your day sobbing on a sofa while you and your girlfriend eat a vat of mint-chocolate-chip ice cream go for it. Men, and society at large, are not harmed by the way that men handle our emotions. We handle our emotions in a way that is optimal for men, and society at large. We don't emote like women therefore we are defective and harming ourselves. If only we could be more like women! What a feminist trope that must be blindly accepted in this ridiculous culture that ya'll want form.

You want to see some men cry:

There you go. We are all so much better now.

Like a year ago, I caught something nasty. I thought it was flu. I went to an urgent care for a test. 

It was pretty much deserted, except for a father and his, maybe 5 or 6 year old son. Warmed my heart to see them together as the father was patiently teaching his son how to read one of the books in the waiting room. The boy was the sick one between them, he looked very tired but content, leaning his head on his father's shoulder.

We were called back about the same time and put in adjacent "rooms" with a curtain wall between them. 

I was seen first. A nurse came and stuck a long swab up my nose and twisted, counting down from ten as she did so. It hurt and burned. My eyes watered and at the end, as she removed the swab, I involuntarily said "ow." She said, "I'm sorry, I know it hurts."

A few minutes later it was the little boy's turn. They suspected flu, and because he had asthma he was already quite sick. (I heard all this discussed through the curtain.)  The nurse did the test and left, and as she did I heard the softest, slightest sniffles emit from my neighbor's side. The boy was shedding a quiet tear or two because he'd been hurt by this painful test.

His father's voice was much louder through the curtain. He asked his son "are you a girl? You have got to toughen up. Stop acting like a sissy.  Crying and carrying on. Stop it."

The sniffling stopped. The nurse came back with my test results and a prescription for Tamiflu. As I left I glanced back and saw behind the other side of the curtain, where this child was crumpled up in his chair like a wounded animal.

I wanted so badly to tell that father that he was working at cross purposes with himself. That this very thing is what turns boys trans or gay - when powerful and beloved authority figures plant a false ideal of masculinity in a boy's head and simultaneously plant the seeds of fear and doubt that they cannot measure up to it; that they cannot become a "real" man. 

Maybe that doubt will mean the boy is only comfortable having friends who are girls. With them he may learn to appreciate and enjoy "girl" play, earning him rebuke from his male peers, further alienating him from masculinity.  Eventually he may also follow the vast majority of girls in deciding that men are of interest sexually.  He may think of this as a sexual orientation and report "feeling different" from a young age. Or he may decide his alienation from masculinity is a sign that he is trans. He may report having "always" felt more comfortable "acting like a girl."

Another response might be, determination to overcome  "weakness" (eg shedding a tear because of a painful test). This can manifest as strong rejection of anything considered in the least bit feminine (childcare, religion) and pursuit of hyper masculine occupations and activities (navy seals, boxing, etc) despite a lack of talent and actual enjoyment.  

A third response might be, emotional deadening, in which the boy turns off the deep reflective thinking which triggers emotional responses. This is the most common of the three responses I'm describing.  The boy grows up to be a man who can only deeply feel and express the emotion of anger. Other emotional responses even perfectly normal ones,  are dulled. Many report being unable to feel excitement. It's anhedonia and imo the main reason suicide rates for men outpace women. 

 

 

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

Like a year ago, I caught something nasty. I thought it was flu. I went to an urgent care for a test. 

It was pretty much deserted, except for a father and his, maybe 5 or 6 year old son. Warmed my heart to see them together as the father was patiently teaching his son how to read one of the books in the waiting room. The boy was the sick one between them, he looked very tired but content, leaning his head on his father's shoulder.

We were called back about the same time and put in adjacent "rooms" with a curtain wall between them. 

I was seen first. A nurse came and stuck a long swab up my nose and twisted, counting down from ten as she did so. It hurt and burned. My eyes watered and at the end, as she removed the swab, I involuntarily said "ow." She said, "I'm sorry, I know it hurts."

A few minutes later it was the little boy's turn. They suspected flu, and because he had asthma he was already quite sick. (I heard all this discussed through the curtain.)  The nurse did the test and left, and as she did I heard the softest, slightest sniffles emit from my neighbor's side. The boy was shedding a quiet tear or two because he'd been hurt by this painful test.

His father's voice was much louder through the curtain. He asked his son "are you a girl? You have got to toughen up. Stop acting like a sissy.  Crying and carrying on. Stop it."

The sniffling stopped. The nurse came back with my test results and a prescription for Tamiflu. As I left I glanced back and saw behind the other side of the curtain, where this child was crumpled up in his chair like a wounded animal.

I wanted so badly to tell that father that he was working at cross purposes with himself. That this very thing is what turns boys trans or gay - when powerful and beloved authority figures plant a false ideal of masculinity in a boy's head and simultaneously plant the seeds of fear and doubt that they cannot measure up to it; that they cannot become a "real" man. 

Maybe that doubt will mean the boy is only comfortable having friends who are girls. With them he may learn to appreciate and enjoy "girl" play, earning him rebuke from his male peers, further alienating him from masculinity.  Eventually he may also follow the vast majority of girls in deciding that men are of interest sexually.  He may think of this as a sexual orientation and report "feeling different" from a young age. Or he may decide his alienation from masculinity is a sign that he is trans. He may report having "always" felt more comfortable "acting like a girl."

Another response might be, determination to overcome  "weakness" (eg shedding a tear because of a painful test). This can manifest as strong rejection of anything considered in the least bit feminine (childcare, religion) and pursuit of hyper masculine occupations and activities (navy seals, boxing, etc) despite a lack of talent and actual enjoyment.  

A third response might be, emotional deadening, in which the boy turns off the deep reflective thinking which triggers emotional responses. This is the most common of the three responses I'm describing.  The boy grows up to be a man who can only deeply feel and express the emotion of anger. Other emotional responses even perfectly normal ones,  are dulled. Many report being unable to feel excitement. It's anhedonia and imo the main reason suicide rates for men outpace women.

Come on now. A father telling his son not to cry turns him gay? Are you serious?

Sure, you can produce some article from Feminist Thought Weekly or The Psychobabble Review that says all of that jazz, but do you honestly expect anyone to take it seriously outside of the women's studies department?

Since we are proving our points with anecdotal evidence, my step-dad and plenty of other men told me to toughen up as a child. I ain't gay. I ain't trying to cut my joint off and grow a pair of breasts. I go to Mass. I feel and express joy, especially when my beloved Steelers are playing. And I haven't killed myself obviously. Look, all of these various hypothetical responses of yours are feminist fantasies and other such psychobabble. The most common response is that the boy grows up to be a productive member of society who does not spend an hour on the sofa crying about a splinter, and helps produce all of the modern conveniences of life that you enjoy, such as the computer screen that you are staring upon at this very moment.

Are men perfect? No. Are there things we can improve? Yes. Do we need to fundamentally change ourselves and handle our emotions like women? Are men defective women? GTF out of here with all of that. Look, men know how to be men. Women know how to be women. We've both been doing it for a few million years the last time I checked. Men should go right on being men, instead of crying on the couch and other such foolish things trying to conform themselves to some ridiculous trope of the ideal man that the feminists think men should become.

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@Peace  Yeah, apparently you are unsure of your own masculinity and are afraid to eat quiche.   You don’t have to be a troglodyte to be a man in 2021.
 

And if I was a praying man, I pray that you’re unmarried and childless, and won’t be inflicting your toxic neurosis on a family.

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40 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

@Peace  Yeah, apparently you are unsure of your own masculinity and are afraid to eat quiche.   You don’t have to be a troglodyte to be a man in 2021.
 

And if I was a praying man, I pray that you’re unmarried and childless, and won’t be inflicting your toxic neurosis on a family.

Now you know plenty well I can't be shamed, especially by someone idotic enough to believe that there is no God.

If you want to swallow that nonsense it is your own business.

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2 hours ago, Peace said:

Come on now. A father telling his son not to cry turns him gay? Are you serious?

Sure, you can produce some article from Feminist Thought Weekly or The Psychobabble Review that says all of that jazz, but do you honestly expect anyone to take it seriously outside of the women's studies department?

Since we are proving our points with anecdotal evidence, my step-dad and plenty of other men told me to toughen up as a child. I ain't gay. I ain't trying to cut my joint off and grow a pair of breasts. I go to Mass. I feel and express joy, especially when my beloved Steelers are playing. And I haven't killed myself obviously. Look, all of these various hypothetical responses of yours are feminist fantasies and other such psychobabble. The most common response is that the boy grows up to be a productive member of society who does not spend an hour on the sofa crying about a splinter, and helps produce all of the modern conveniences of life that you enjoy, such as the computer screen that you are staring upon at this very moment.

Are men perfect? No. Are there things we can improve? Yes. Do we need to fundamentally change ourselves and handle our emotions like women? Are men defective women? GTF out of here with all of that. Look, men know how to be men. Women know how to be women. We've both been doing it for a few million years the last time I checked. Men should go right on being men, instead of crying on the couch and other such foolish things trying to conform themselves to some ridiculous trope of the ideal man that the feminists think men should become.

It's interesting that you reference sports because that is one milieu where men are "allowed" to feel and express a range of deeply felt emotional responses, nonsexual affection with male peers, and so on. Almost as if the physical exertion required by a sports setting serves as a bulwark against the threat to masculinity otherwise posed by engaging in these "feminine" behavior. 

I appreciate the strong silent type and I like my men, manly. However in the scenario I described, a man ridicules a small child's perfectly normal and appropriate emotional response as unmasculine. He does this probably because he fears his son will grow up "sissy" and this is what was modeled for him as far as what good fatherhood means. But this is not how one raises resilient, confident men, but neurotic uncertain ones. Some boys get the message that masculinity is hard, and they reject it. Other boys might decide masculinity is hard, and simply live in fear of not measuring up.  Why? Because of a perfectly normal emotional response?  Jesus wept. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

It's interesting that you reference sports because that is one milieu where men are "allowed" to feel and express a range of deeply felt emotional responses, nonsexual affection with male peers, and so on. Almost as if the physical exertion required by a sports setting serves as a bulwark against the threat to masculinity otherwise posed by engaging in these "feminine" behavior. 

When I watch a good Eddie Murphy movie I laugh out loud. What other examples would you like?

Look, men generally enjoy sports more than women do. Perhaps it is because of the 20x more testosterone running through our bodies than you have. Whatever the reason is, when my GF wants to watch Fried Green Tomatoes I do not say "Hell No" because watching the movie presents a threat to my masculinity. I say "Hell No" because the movie is lame to me, I do not like it, and I would rather watch the Bulls game instead. I'm just not into that. Does me not liking this terrible movie have to be because society has programmed me to run from my emotions so as not to be feminine? Come on now.

There seems to be an unsaid assumption that you are making that if not for social programming men and women would like the same things and handle their emotions in the same way, but I don't think that is true. We are different, regardless of cultural expectations.

7 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

I appreciate the strong silent type and I like my men, manly. However in the scenario I described, a man ridicules a small child's perfectly normal and appropriate emotional response as unmasculine. He does this probably because he fears his son will grow up "sissy" and this is what was modeled for him as far as what good fatherhood means. But this is not how one raises resilient, confident men, but neurotic uncertain ones. Some boys get the message that masculinity is hard, and they reject it. Other boys might decide masculinity is hard, and simply live in fear of not measuring up.  Why? Because of a perfectly normal emotional response?  Jesus wept.

OK let me stop being unreasonable. It's OK for a man to cry. There are situations where that is fine.

All men have cried. I've cried. I cried when my dad died, when my mother died, when my homie got killed. But look, it's overrated. Crying ain't bringing anybody back from the dead. It ain't some magical elixir that is going to eliminate world poverty. It's not like folks need to be going out of their way to cry just because somebody ELSE thinks it would be good for them. It's like some of ya'll want a man to cry, "be vulnerable" and other such nonsense all the time, because it makes YOU feel special and it is good for YOUR emotional well being, not the man himself. I don't buy into all of that jazz. I own my emotions and I decide how I want to handle them. If I don't feel like crying on the sofa when you think I should be crying, oh well. Get over it.

Now, it could be the case that in this particular situation that the father was a bit too harsh on his son. That's his son though. It's the father's responsibility to determine when to be hard on him, and when to be more gentle with him. But he could have been wrong in that particular situation.

What I take issue with is the general notion that it is a bad thing for men to instill in other men virtues of strength, stoicism, not being overly emotive outwardly, being aggressive, assertive, and all the other things that a lot of ya'll like to refer to as "toxic" nowadays. Those are virtues that have served both men and women quite well over history, in my opinion, and I don't see anything wrong with men trying to instill those virtues in other men, whether they be considered stereotypes or not. So maybe the father in that particular instance was wrong, but I say that there are plenty of instances where it is good for fathers to tell their sons to "toughen up" and that generally it is good for men to raise their sons to be tough (and by tough I mean not crying every time you get a splinter or face some other form of adversity).

What I see developing is honestly a sort of a perverse-double standard when it comes to all of this stuff. Nowadays it seems the trend to encourage girls and women to exhibit many of the stereotypical male characteristics. Ya'll rolling around nowadays calling each other Lady Bosses and trying to "out men" men in practically every area of life. But if a man exhibits those very same traits then they are "toxic" all of a sudden. A lot of it is BS in my opinion. I don't agree with it. I don't mean it as anything personal against you though.

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