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CuriositasEtFidem

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1 minute ago, fides' Jack said:

 

I will agree with this statement.  Still, my claim was not wrong.  Dressing up specifically as a member of the opposite sex is mortally sinful, as it is contrary to the natural law.  That's the context we're discussing 

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. Gender stereotypes do not feature in natural law.  Did I skip over this in Aquinas? Can you quote me the Church's teaching on this?

4 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

 

Some people would be morally wrong in this case.  You don't treat a mental illness by playing into it, and those who do so are guilty of grave matter.  If the person is truly mentally ill, then it is better for them to die by suicide than for society to pretend they are not mentally ill, specifically because they are not entirely culpable for the sin of suicide.  Truth matters more than peoples' lives.

I agree with you that promoting dysphoria as normal is probably part of the gender ideology we are forbidden to embrace as Catholics. However, yikes to: "truth matters more than people's lives." Yes I guess but also no. I mean, you can allow someone to live as they wish without harassment and still reject their version of reality as upside down. You can do both. Are you a psychiatrist, because your statement that "you don't treat mental illness by playing into it" isn't exactly true in every case. If mental illness is refractory to treatment, harm reduction is a viable option. I'm thinking specifically of dementia. When demented elderly people come up with nonsense, the best practice is to not argue with or correct them.  A lot of dementia patients benefit from having a doll or stuffed animal to care for as if it were real. Just 2 examples.

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For anyone interested in some well reasoned guidance on such issues, the Congregation for Catholic Education's 2019 document Male and Female He Created Them has some very nice guidance, which I will a

You say "double effect", but I hear "the end justifies the means". What the surgeon does in these circumstance is permanent mutilation to allow someone to tell a lie with their own body. I heard

There was no need to prematurely assume the worst of all of us in this regard before letting the thread take its course. I remain faithful to every teaching of the Catholic Church, felt that a warm we

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1 hour ago, Lilllabettt said:

This is probably why the idea of having a Trans child is kind of a nightmare to me. By all means I support people who want to perform whatever gender stereotypes they wish, especially if it's the best chance for them to not kill themselves.  

But, the existence of Trans identity represents a profound failure of our society imo. Of parenting. Or of something. I want my child to love his/her body as perfect the way it is. Whereas Trans identity often involves a rejection or loathing of normal healthy body parts. I want my child to have the courage to live standing up with a certain profound indifference to how society treats and perceives them - whereas Trans identity (like all gender based identity) is performance and thirst to have the performance perceived and accepted by society. Where a transperson feels uncomfortable and fake breaking sex based gender stereotypes - I want my child to feel happy and brave and liberated doing so. 

And then lastly and maybe most profoundly you say "I'm a man" but what you mean is, you dress and act and present yourself in the ways our society expects men to.  Let's flip it. If you were Trans and said "I'm a woman" you would mean, you dress behave and present yourself the way society expects women to. I can feel the hair standing up on my neck as I type ... and not to be aggressive, as I fully support your freedom to live any way you want without persecution or harassment... but No: Performing women's gender stereotypes, whether "assigned" or preferred, is not what makes one a woman.  This is a bedrock value of mine; to me it would almost be like a child rejecting religion. Not quite at that level, but very disappointing and making me question where I went wrong. 

You mentioned your parents didn't take your transition well. I wonder if you could share what their attitude towards gender in general. Are they from the "dolls for girls trucks for boys" mindset or ...? 

Yes, they're "traditional" in that respect. She/her pronouns are grating on my ears, even if I'm a "tough, strong, masculine woman." If I were in the middle of nowhere with not a person within a ten-mile radius, I would still be transgender. Respectfully, I don't think it's performative, but I find your perspective interesting.

2 minutes ago, Ash Wednesday said:

@CuriositasEtFidem

My first question -- what has your pastoral guidance been when navigating through your situation? For example, do you have a regular confessor or priest that you talk to? Also, what is your parish or church life like? Traditional? Local parish? 

 

Unfortunately I'm in a difficult situation now---I won't get into specifics---where I can't have a regular confessor. I consider myself a traditional Catholic (wild, right?) and adore the Latin Mass. Sadly, I'm only able to go to a Novus Ordo parish for Sunday Mass every week

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1 minute ago, CuriositasEtFidem said:

Yes, they're "traditional" in that respect. She/her pronouns are grating on my ears, even if I'm a "tough, strong, masculine woman." If I were in the middle of nowhere with not a person within a ten-mile radius, I would still be transgender. Respectfully, I don't think it's performative, but I find your perspective interesting.

I guess my question is, when you drill down to it - what about she/her is so offensive? I mean, what have you internalized about the meaning of being a "she" that you find so out of sync with who you are?

"It's" not you- "it" feels fake - but what is "it" in your mind? 

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Just now, Lilllabettt said:

I guess my question is, when you drill down to it - what about she/her is so offensive? I mean, what have you internalized about the meaning of being a "she" that you find so out of sync with who you are?

"It's" not you- "it" feels fake - but what is "it" in your mind? 

It has a direct connection to womanhood, and when I'm referred to as "she" or "her," I always feel disconnected, or dissociated for some reason, like I'm a passenger in my own body, if that makes any sense lol. Whereas being addressed as "he" feels like it's "me proper" that's being spoken to. 

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6 minutes ago, chrysostom said:

You say "double effect", but I hear "the end justifies the means". What the surgeon does in these circumstance is permanent mutilation to allow someone to tell a lie with their own body.

I heard the story of someone who had developed the idea that she ought to be blind. The psychiatrist decided that it was best for her mental state that she be blinded, and did so. The end result is neither acceptable for her mental state or for her body. The same goes with trans surgeries and therapies.

That's fine, but this isn't the Church's teaching. The Church hasn't commented on sex reassignment and there are important reasons for that. I know of another case where a woman identified as an amputee and hunted around for a surgeon to remove her perfectly healthy leg. Most surgeons consider this type of thing unethical. I do as well. But, things aren't as cut and dried with our religion as many assume. 

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49 minutes ago, chrysostom said:

Sterilization and mutilation of perfectly healthy body parts is deeply wrong on many levels.

I don't intend to be sterilized, I agree with you, willful sterilization without sufficient medical reason is sinful. Plus, "bottom surgery" as it is called is pretty risky for ftm individuals such as myself. I'd rather not risk serious injury. I do, however, intend to get top surgery, which is safer by miles. My chest is a major source of my dysphoria. I slouch, bind it, and dress in layers to hide it. To put it bluntly, if I may, it smells of elderberries a whole lot. I don't recognize myself in the mirror when I see it. It's not "me."

I'd like to present an idea: God gave us wheat and grapes, not bread and wine. We participate in creating by transforming what God has given us. It's the same (sort of) with trans folks, if you get what I mean.

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1 minute ago, CuriositasEtFidem said:

It has a direct connection to womanhood, and when I'm referred to as "she" or "her," I always feel disconnected, or dissociated for some reason, like I'm a passenger in my own body, if that makes any sense lol. Whereas being addressed as "he" feels like it's "me proper" that's being spoken to. 

So what are your thoughts on the roots of this dissassociation with womanhood. I mean, you say if you were alone in the world you would still be transgender but you frame your discomfort as some other addressing/referring to you. Which goes back to trans identity as primarily a social performance. I mean ultimately the dissassociation has to do with a lack of congruence between who you feel yourself to be and the mental model of womanhood right? So what is your mental model of womanhood then, and who gave it to you? 

Side note; are you on the spectrum at all? Don't answer if you're not comfortable.  

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Just now, Lilllabettt said:

So what are your thoughts on the roots of this dissassociation with womanhood. I mean, you say if you were alone in the world you would still be transgender but you frame your discomfort as some other addressing/referring to you. Which goes back to trans identity as primarily a social performance. I mean ultimately the dissassociation has to do with a lack of congruence between who you feel yourself to be and the mental model of womanhood right? So what is your mental model of womanhood then, and who gave it to you? 

Side note; are you on the spectrum at all? Don't answer if you're not comfortable.  

That's a very good question, and one I find many "gender theorists" dodging. "What does it mean to be a woman?" Well, I suppose you're right, that gender is partly performative, and really just a social construct based on sexual differences. Honestly I'm not totally sure why I feel dissociated from womanhood. It is what it is, I suppose. There's something about womanhood that's on the tip of my tongue that I can't quite identify, but whatever it is, it doesn't sit right with me, regardless of how many gender stereotypes I break "as a woman." I think that it's valid enough to say that saying "I'm a man," (as an expression of identity, not "pretending" to be one) and being perceived as such feels much better, and gives me more peace of mind.

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1 hour ago, Lilllabettt said:

This is probably why the idea of having a Trans child is kind of a nightmare to me. By all means I support people who want to perform whatever gender stereotypes they wish, especially if it's the best chance for them to not kill themselves.  

What if the child is prepubescent, is it fair or prudent to entertain the whimsical mind of a (trans)child and alter his or her body or hormones.

Didn’t  Johns Hopkins Hospital (who pioneered transgender surgery) discontinue the practice because of the high rate of suicide soon after the patients reached puberty?

see: Transgender is ‘Mental Disorder;' Sex Change ‘Biologically Impossible’

https://www.cnsnews.com/article/national/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex

He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people. 

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8 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

 

Side note; are you on the spectrum at all? Don't answer if you're not comfortable.  

It's funny that you mention that, actually. I have ADD, and my brother has Asperger's and ADHD, we suspect my dad has Asperger's as well, so I wouldn't be totally surprised if I were to be somewhere on the spectrum too

1 minute ago, little2add said:

What if the child is prepubescent, is it fair or prudent to entertain the whimsical mind of a (trans)child and alter his or her body or hormones.

Didn’t  Johns Hopkins Hospital (who pioneered transgender surgery) discontinue the practice because of the high rate of suicide soon after the patients reached puberty?

see: Transgender is ‘Mental Disorder;' Sex Change ‘Biologically Impossible’

https://www.cnsnews.com/article/national/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex

 

I agree that young children shouldn't medically transition, as their minds are often subject to change. They should be helped with exploring this, but certainly not with making permeant changes until they're adults. Calling Sally Sam and "he" for a year or two does less damage than putting Sally on puberty blockers and hormones, only to have Sally realize she's made a terrible mistake

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32 minutes ago, CuriositasEtFidem said:

Yes, they're "traditional" in that respect. She/her pronouns are grating on my ears, even if I'm a "tough, strong, masculine woman." If I were in the middle of nowhere with not a person within a ten-mile radius, I would still be transgender. Respectfully, I don't think it's performative, but I find your perspective interesting.

Unfortunately I'm in a difficult situation now---I won't get into specifics---where I can't have a regular confessor. I consider myself a traditional Catholic (wild, right?) and adore the Latin Mass. Sadly, I'm only able to go to a Novus Ordo parish for Sunday Mass every week

Understandable. I prefer the traditional liturgies myself. 

Were you born/raised Catholic? What has your family life and relationships with them been like? 

I feel pretty nosy :lol4:honestly it's only to get full context and understanding of your situation.  


 

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If a plane leaves New York at 10 p.m., traveling west at 545 mph, and another plane leaves Los Angeles at 1 a.m. traveling north by northeast at 600 mph, what are the odds they will crash over Omaha before daylight?

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Just now, Ash Wednesday said:

Understandable. I prefer the traditional liturgies myself. 

Were you born/raised Catholic? What has your family life and relationships with them been like? 

I feel pretty nosy :lol4:honestly it's only to get full context and understanding of your situation.  


 

Nah I don't mind at all, this is an AMlol. Yes, I was born and raised Catholic. As for my family life, it's been somewhat dysfunctional, but we tolerate each other at the end of the day. 

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Just now, little2add said:

What if the child is prepubescent, is it fair or prudent to entertain the whimsical mind of a (trans)child and alter his or her body or hormones.

Didn’t  Johns Hopkins Hospital (who pioneered transgender surgery) discontinue the practice because of the high rate of suicide soon after the patients reached puberty?

see: Transgender is ‘Mental Disorder;' Sex Change ‘Biologically Impossible’

https://www.cnsnews.com/article/national/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex

 

I mean, I'm not a doctor. But it seems we have good research that shows the vast majority of gender questioning children and adolescents grow out of it. Personally I think it's irresponsible and unethical.  Most of these children have simply internalized toxic messages about manhood and womanhood and doubts about their ability to correspond to womanhood and manhood.

There's not a ton of research on whether body modification in general prevents suicide. If it does, it could possibly be deemed acceptable or "tolerated" as an intervention for pathology. I mean, I have my opinion. But the Church hasn't formally committed one way or the other, for good reasons. The Church seems to recognize a pathological factor in trans identity in that it forbids transpeople from serving as either godfather or godmother. 

11 minutes ago, CuriositasEtFidem said:

It's funny that you mention that, actually. I have ADD, and my brother has Asperger's and ADHD, we suspect my dad has Asperger's as well, so I wouldn't be totally surprised if I were to be somewhere on the spectrum too

I ask because it is very, very common to have the type of dissassociation you describe comorbid with autism. 

I fully support your freedom to live how you like free from abuse and violence and harassment. But, my hunch would be you are suffering from an untreated developmental disorder such as autism or similar to. It's impacting your nervous system and giving you the sensation of dissassociation, which you interpret as having a transgender identity. Very, very common. 

Something you may want to explore especially before making any permanent changes. 

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31 minutes ago, Lilllabettt said:

But, things aren't as cut and dried with our religion as many assume

Well said.

Butting in again with my two cents worth:

As an example, many Catholics do think of grave matter as mortal sin; however, grave matter does require two other conditions before it becomes mortally sinful (i.e. full knowledge and full consent).

Quote

 

Catholic Catechism:

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

 

I think that as Catholics we have become generally speaking extremely moralistic, taking life and the journey completely out of the context of The Loving Mercy of God.  Possibly too, even failing in love of our neighbour.  Another moral point is that life and the journey can present us with a choice between two evils rather than a good or an evil choice.  We would be called to choose the lesser evil.

I think too that a spirituality can come across as harsh and abrasive, rather than reflecting the Love and the Mercy of God, His Infinite Compassion and His Infinite Understanding.  The Good Lord desires ardently the salvation of every single human being, past present and to come.  Nothing shouts this louder than the Incarnation and the life and death of Jesus.  Through Him we are called and activated into a new incarnation ourselves and a journey through with and in Him.  Not through with and in 'the big law book'.  As St Paul has told us and to paraphrase him, all the law can do for us is underscore we are all sinners.  We differ only perhaps in degree and kind.  And what makes my sin less serious than that of my neighbour?  Indeed, my sin may be far more grievous than any at all of my neighbour - due to Graces I have been gifted.

I think we can take our spirituality relating to moral matters especially out of the context of a personal relationship to God and to neighbour.  We (or I perhaps) want to do good and avoid evil and so get across the magic line in to Heaven.  To, as it were, bind up God's Hands so He has an obligation to grant me/us Heaven.   It rather reminds me of a line from Jesus Christ Superstar i.e. "too much Heaven on their minds".

To do good and avoid evil, is of course, commendable.  Insofar as it does not stunt our spiritual growth and keep us at that stage, never developing into relationship.  This is where sound spiritual direction and advice can be a spiritual treasure, a rich spiritual treasure.

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