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The resignation of Cardinal Robert Sarah


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Honestly, it goes beyond the scope of discussions I am still willing to dedicate time to on internet fora.  Btw, are you on Facebook? I would be happy to reconnect with you if you are.  

The Catholic Church teaches that everyone is created in the Image and Likeness of God. . .not for ourselves. From the BC # 3: Why did make us? God made us to show forth His goodness and to share

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It's kind of interesting how Africa seems to be the last true bastion of conservative Catholicism. But I wonder how true that is in reality. At the level of the clergy that seems to be the case, but as for the laity and the culture of the general populations in the various countries, I have some doubts.

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1 hour ago, Peace said:

It's kind of interesting how Africa seems to be the last true bastion of conservative Catholicism. But I wonder how true that is in reality. At the level of the clergy that seems to be the case, but as for the laity and the culture of the general populations in the various countries, I have some doubts.

Speaking for Australia, there are many good holy Priests who've come here from Africa but none seem that interested in identifying with western traditionalists.  They are unfailingly faithful to Vatican II.  So I think that traditionalists placing their hopes in the African Church to reverse things, is dead in the water.

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1 hour ago, Mercedes said:

Speaking for Australia, there are many good holy Priests who've come here from Africa but none seem that interested in identifying with western traditionalists.  They are unfailingly faithful to Vatican II.  So I think that traditionalists placing their hopes in the African Church to reverse things, is dead in the water.

That could be true. I think that conservative Catholics and traditionalists are different groups though. There is some overlap but I would say that there are plenty of trads who are not conservative in their thinking, and that there are plenty of conservatives who are not trads (myself being chief among them, naturally).

Is the whole trad phenomenon basically a white/European thing? I wonder, but just from my own experience I don't really seem to see it all that much among the brown Catholics of the world.

Have I ever met a black trad? I don't think so. I am sure that one exists, somewhere on the planet.

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16 hours ago, Peace said:

Is the whole trad phenomenon basically a white/European thing? I wonder, but just from my own experience I don't really seem to see it all that much among the brown Catholics of the world.

Have I ever met a black trad? I don't think so. I am sure that one exists, somewhere on the planet.

I mean, I’m mixed and go to a Fraternity parish. I’m aware of at least one black family and perhaps a couple Latin American families that attend my parish as well. We exist, sure. I just don’t really identify with race all that much, so when I speak as a trad I speak as a trad, not as a “black trad.”

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Remember that Africa was Christian long before Europe, and in fact among the first converts in the book of Acts is an Ethiopian eunuch visiting Jerusalem who takes the Gospel back to the Ethiopian kingdom of Queen Candace. The legacy of the traditional Orthodox churches is still strong in Ethiopia and Egypt.

Africa is in grave trouble right now, largely because it is still under the domination of Western colonial powers like France and the USA. Cameroon is violently divided by English speakers and French speakers. Mussolini invaded Ethiopia in 1936 and that lead to the division of the separate state of Eritrea in the north, and Ethiopia is currently in a civil war between the government and the Tigrayan ethnic group in the the north which has ethnic ties with Eritrea. Religious corruption is rampant in Africa (as it is everywhere else, but religion still plays a major social role in Africa, unlike in the West). The Pope got on his knees a few years ago to beg for peace between the divided leaders of South Sudan, which is the youngest country in the world after separating from Sudan. Meanwhile, there is a new "scramble for Africa" among all the world powers for control and exploitation of its resources.

Latin liturgy is not going to do anything for Africa. The last thing the continent needs is another division by a European language. If Catholicism wants to do something constructive for Africa, I'd say it should focus on countering the retreat of the West into anti-global conservatism and aggressive/racist nationalism, ala Trumpism in the USA or Orban in Hungary. How can anyone who belongs to a church that by nature is a global project, align themselves with anti-global conservatism and xenophobia against traditional cultures like those in Latin America and Africa. Remember that Trump racistly dismissed these as "sh**hole countries." The Pope is not an American, fortunately, and not favorable to the retreat into spiritual isolationism of small-minded puritanic factions who think they can save the world if only they hunker down and pretend that the world doesn't exist outside their little reality.

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ReasonableFaith

There is an interesting, if meandering, video discussing a missionary Bishop in post-colonial East Africa:

The clerics I have encountered from this region (small sample size) haven't displayed any ‘traditional’ bent in their liturgical styles. A simple ‘middle of the road’ ordinary form style seems to predominate, at least while stateside and studying. It may be worth noting Sarah’s bishopric was on the opposite side of the continent. 

I can’t comment  on their ‘conservative’ thinking or ‘liberal’ thinking, rather I might say, ‘practical thinking.’ They all seemed very busy at home with the basics: building up food supplies/farming operations, educational opportunities, medical facilities, as well as the local church (physical plants, clergy, and laity). In my experience this is also true of the missionaries and local religious in West Africa, particularly Liberia and Ghana. 
 

I do know they feel a good amount of pressure from Pentecostalism, the Prosperity Gospel and aggressive proselytizing by Jehovahs Witnesses. I do not know how this impacts the thinking or practice on the ground amongst the clergy or laity.  

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2 hours ago, ReasonableFaith said:

There is an interesting, if meandering, video discussing a missionary Bishop in post-colonial East Africa:

The clerics I have encountered from this region (small sample size) haven't displayed any ‘traditional’ bent in their liturgical styles. A simple ‘middle of the road’ ordinary form style seems to predominate, at least while stateside and studying. It may be worth noting Sarah’s bishopric was on the opposite side of the continent. 

I can’t comment  on their ‘conservative’ thinking or ‘liberal’ thinking, rather I might say, ‘practical thinking.’ They all seemed very busy at home with the basics: building up food supplies/farming operations, educational opportunities, medical facilities, as well as the local church (physical plants, clergy, and laity). In my experience this is also true of the missionaries and local religious in West Africa, particularly Liberia and Ghana. 
 

I do know they feel a good amount of pressure from Pentecostalism, the Prosperity Gospel and aggressive proselytizing by Jehovahs Witnesses. I do not know how this impacts the thinking or practice on the ground amongst the clergy or laity.  

Here is the Emperor of Ethiopia speaking about Christ. He was crowned emperor in 1930 which included his oath to uphold the Orthodox faith. If you want to honor a real Christian king, remember and honor this man. His full imperial title was His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I, Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah, King of Kings and Elect of God. Haile Selassie means "Power of the Trinity" in Amharic.

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12 hours ago, Pooooma said:

I mean, I’m mixed and go to a Fraternity parish. I’m aware of at least one black family and perhaps a couple Latin American families that attend my parish as well. We exist, sure. I just don’t really identify with race all that much, so when I speak as a trad I speak as a trad, not as a “black trad.”

That's interesting. I guess we would have to define "Trad". I wouldn't say that someone attending a FSSP Parish, or someone who has a preference for the Latin Mass, or that style of worship generally, is automatically a Trad. I go to a fairly "Traditional" parish. TLM 3 times a week, communion kneeling on the tongue, Ad Orientum, confession line during Mass, male altar boys, gregorian, and all of that jazz. I like this form of worship, but I wouldn't call myself a Trad at all.

I'll confess that I don't have a clear definition, but when I think of a Trad it typically goes a bit beyond that in my own head. When I hear "Trad" I think of someone who says "The NO Mass and V2 are an abomination and should be abdicated". Things like that. But granted, perhaps that is unfair.

10 hours ago, Era Might said:

Remember that Africa was Christian long before Europe

Maybe. I don't know but my impress is that applies only to certain parts of North Africa that are predominantly Muslim. The parts of Africa where Catholicism thrives today (the Sub-saharan parts) I think became Christian during the years of colonization. Ethiopia seems to be the only African land that was Christian early-on and remains Christian, but somebody can correct me if I am wrong.

10 hours ago, Era Might said:

If Catholicism wants to do something constructive for Africa, I'd say it should focus on countering the retreat of the West into anti-global conservatism and aggressive/racist nationalism, ala Trumpism in the USA or Orban in Hungary. 

Yeah I dunno know about all that. Jesus did not found a political action committee. The primary role of the Church is to spread the good news of our Lord Jesus and to assist people in their spiritual journey towards Heaven. The getting involved with politics and what have you is secondary, and a goal of the Church insofar as it serves Her main purposes I think.

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ReasonableFaith
3 hours ago, Era Might said:

Here is the Emperor of Ethiopia speaking about Christ. He was crowned emperor in 1930 which included his oath to uphold the Orthodox faith.

Interesting. I think you can find footage of his coronation liturgy if you look around the YouTubes. 

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3 minutes ago, Peace said:

That's interesting. I guess we would have to define "Trad". I wouldn't say that someone attending a FSSP Parish, or someone who has a preference for the Latin Mass, or that style of worship generally, is automatically a Trad. I go to a fairly "Traditional" parish. TLM 3 times a week, communion kneeling on the tongue, Ad Orientum, confession line during Mass, male altar boys, gregorian, and all of that jazz. I like this form of worship, but I wouldn't call myself a Trad at all.

I'll confess that I don't have a clear definition, but when I think of a Trad it typically goes a bit beyond that in my own head. When I hear "Trad" I think of someone who says "The NO Mass and V2 are an abomination and should be abdicated". Things like that. But granted, perhaps that is unfair.

I think that’s totally fair. Most of the more outspoken trads I’ve met have voiced such views, and it seems a decent number who don’t voice them are still sympathetic to them.

Now that you mention it, I don’t know how much I’d consider myself to be a trad either. I suppose I took it for granted that I was, but I tend not to think about things like that too much. (Not to sound naive, but labels aren’t my thing.) I suppose I just think of myself as a Catholic who prefers traditional expression.

If there’s one thing I’m not surprised about, it’s a lack of black support for an identitarian movement whose entire claim is, “Things were better before 1963!” and I genuinely can’t imagine there being such a thing as a self-identifying black sedevacantist. If that’s the type of jive that’s “trad”, maybe you’re right.

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ReasonableFaith
10 minutes ago, Pooooma said:

I suppose I just think of myself as a Catholic who prefers traditional expression.

This might be one of the most helpful things I have encountered in the catholic online community. Thank you!

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37 minutes ago, Peace said:

Maybe. I don't know but my impress is that applies only to certain parts of North Africa that are predominantly Muslim. The parts of Africa where Catholicism thrives today (the Sub-saharan parts) I think became Christian during the years of colonization. Ethiopia seems to be the only African land that was Christian early-on and remains Christian, but somebody can correct me if I am wrong.

Yeah I dunno know about all that. Jesus did not found a political action committee. The primary role of the Church is to spread the good news of our Lord Jesus and to assist people in their spiritual journey towards Heaven. The getting involved with politics and what have you is secondary, and a goal of the Church insofar as it serves Her main purposes I think.

Yes, Africa is a vast continent with many different spiritual traditions. Africa has always been the crossroads of civilization. Christianity is native or indigenous to Africa. In fact, Ethiopia is mentioned in the very first passages of the Bible as one of the lands covered by the rivers of Eden. All civilization comes from Africa, including the concept of Christ itself, a divine, anointed king. Solomon was the father of Menelik, son of the Ethiopian queen Makeda. The oldest known human ancestor, Lucy, was discovered in Ethiopia. This is the origin of all human life and civilization. European civilization is a newcomer on the world scene. Homer wrote that Ethiopia was the land where the gods loved to dwell, and the psalms says that Ethiopia will soon stretch forth her hands unto God. As it was in the beginning, so shall it be in the end. Africa is rising as surely as the sun itself.

As for the church, the Pope is a global leader of over a billion people. Though he is no longer a monarch in the medieval sense, he remains a global power broker and peacemaker. The church itself has recognized its own former isolationism and changed course. There was a time when the Pope was a prisoner of Rome, never leaving its walls. The church recognizes that it is not the spiritual center of the world, that there is a vast world made up of many different peoples, and its role is not to vainly pretend that everyone is going to become Catholic. The church, if it has any role in the world at all, has it in Europe and the West. If the church just wants to be a global parish for old ladies to say their rosaries, well it will continue its slide into irrelevance in the West, but in fact the Church comments all the time on society, and as I mentioned, is involved directly in politics, as in South Sudan because the Pope understands the slaughter that is going on in the world. Pope Francis in particular has spoken out about the global situation driven by capitalism and other modern manias.

32 minutes ago, ReasonableFaith said:

Interesting. I think you can find footage of his coronation liturgy if you look around the YouTubes. 

You can find anything on the YouTubes!

The coronation was a long, intense ceremony. The emperor and empress spent the entire night before in prayer at the cathedral in Addis Ababa. Just imagine!

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Here is the video of the Pope kissing the feet of the leaders of South Sudan and begging for peace. This is the fundamental role of religion, love and peace. Religion can no longer be a source of division. Let every man believe according to his conscience, but the world must be one, because we are all children of the same Father. Christianity must be the religion of the prophets. As John says in the Bible, true religion pure and undefiled is to care for widows and orphans in their distress. God lives inside man, man is the tabernacle of God. If you believe he lives in the tabernacle of a church, you must equally believe he lives in the tabernacle of each and every person without exception. He is really and truly present in man.

 

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