Consecrated life higher than marriage?

[BarbTherese]

The object of life is to love and serve God in holiness and sanctity, not to be called to consecrated life or consecrated virginity.

13 hours ago, freedomreigns said:

In this particular case, it is quite clearly set out in the CCC 916 ... "The religious state is... "more intimate"... "dedicated totally to God"... "follow Christ more nearly"... "give themselves to God who is loved above all"... "pursuing the perfection of charity". In CCC 923 consecrated virgins "are betrothed mystically to Christ" and become a "sacred person". So, no, the CCC does not come outright with the statement that it is a higher state. However, it seems obvious to me that all of this points to the statement nonetheless.

Not quite accurate I dont think to suggest or infer that the above qualities cannot be fulfilled and achieved in any other vocation other than religious life.   Saints are raised to the altar because  their holiness and saintliness are confirmed by The Church - and because they have something to say to the whole Church, like the Martins, the parents of St Therese of Lisieux.........a married couple.  

The reason, possibly, probably/perhaps/might be at least in most cases I suspect , because, we have more saints that were in Holy Orders and/or religious life is because they tend to document their spiritual autobiographies in some form.   That alone, however, cannot and will not indicate a life lived in holiness and sanctity.  The path to the altar is a long and involved.  

The Church, in my book, was being unkind to God to suggest He can be a bit mean-minded where vocations are concerned.🙄

Edited March 28, 2023 by BarbTherese

[BarbTherese]

If a theology states the vocations, some of them, are 'short changed' where some vocations are concerned made me scratch my head in confusion about the nature of God AND therefore, in this instance, about the nature of some vocations.  Put me into a crisis type state re faith for a bit of time as to what I believed, until I referred to the fact that I knew God was not mean minded at all, therefore sorting me out re vocations.

This subject seems to keep cropping up on Pham.  Then I thought, perhaps it is an old thread resurrected.  I had a look........nope! It is indeed current..........AGAIN?.......... 

 

On 3/26/2023 at 9:58 AM, BarbTherese said:

Holy Orders for men, consecrated, single or marital state

I should have mentioned consecrated virginity in the above 'list'......see my post on 16th March.

Edited March 28, 2023 by BarbTherese

[BarbTherese]

On 3/25/2023 at 1:59 AM, Alison said:

St. Thomas Aquinas did express however that consecrated life is more perfect. I think it would be possible for both vocations to enable someone to live God with their whole heart, while one still being objectively more perfect maybe. 

Very broadly and quite generally speaking, there are three indications of a likely particular subjective vocation:

1. A desire for a particular vocation
2. The qualities necessary for that vocation
3. Acceptance into that vocation

I am only a lay person in a quite rickety very amateur armchair of 'theology'.  I think that the consecrated state and Holy Orders, through public profession, are a quite public declaration of lifetime-intent and public consecration/ordination to it; whereas in the other vocations i.e. in the Laity, the evangelical counsels are only most often implied intrinsically as to intent without any kind of actual public declaration.  The latter is unnecessary really, since the public declaration of intent is in Baptism.  The personal vocation spells out (usually and most often publicly in public) how a person intends to live out their Baptismal intent.  

___________________________________________

Two thoughts just 'connected' for me:  1) I don't think that the Theology of Baptism is sufficiently developed or known in The Church.  Baptism is initiation into The Catholic Church.  2) St Joseph is our patron and only ever now and then mentioned................well, I know what I mean anyway.........the bipolar mind and all that...........

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by BarbTherese

[Sapientia]

On 3/24/2023 at 11:13 AM, Dymphna said:

I'd be interested in your source for this. I'm a theologian, and AFAIK, the Church does NOT teach this, at least since Vatican II. There are certainly a lot of people around who express thoughts like the ones you cite ("undivided heart" etc.), but for all I know, official Church teaching makes it very clear that there is no state of life (as in marriage, single life or consecrated life) which is per se higher than another. You got this totally right with your impression that the Bible teaches we are all called to love God with all we are and have. Maybe you just read some older material which gave you a misleading impression?

"If any one shall say, that the marriage state is to be preferred before a state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be joined in matrimony; let him be anathema." (Council of Trent, Canon X on the Sacrament of Matrimony)

This is official Church teaching, and Vatican II did not change this (nor could it have, since official Church teaching cannot change). In fact, the belief that marriage and celibacy are on equal footing is a heresy known as Jovinianism. Note that Church teaching does *not* say that every celibate person is holier than every married person, or even that each and every individual would be holier as a celibate person than as a married person. For some people, because of their personal circumstances or dispositions (and what specific circumstances or dispositions these may be could be open to discussion), marriage may be a better option. In itself, however, celibacy is better and provides more powerful means for attaining union with God.

[GraceUk]

But on the other hand you might get a saintly married person and a not very saintly priest or nun. Maybe it means that an individual can attain a higher state of holiness if they are celibate. Not that it's automatic. It is a bit confusing.

[Nunsuch]

49 minutes ago, Sapientia said:

"If any one shall say, that the marriage state is to be preferred before a state of virginity, or of celibacy, and that it is not better and more blessed to remain in virginity, or in celibacy, than to be joined in matrimony; let him be anathema." (Council of Trent, Canon X on the Sacrament of Matrimony)

This is official Church teaching, and Vatican II did not change this (nor could it have, since official Church teaching cannot change). In fact, the belief that marriage and celibacy are on equal footing is a heresy known as Jovinianism. Note that Church teaching does *not* say that every celibate person is holier than every married person, or even that each and every individual would be holier as a celibate person than as a married person. For some people, because of their personal circumstances or dispositions (and what specific circumstances or dispositions these may be could be open to discussion), marriage may be a better option. In itself, however, celibacy is better and provides more powerful means for attaining union with God.

This was certainly modified by the Second Vatican Council. While dogma is permanent, a teaching like this is not dogmatic and can certainly be modified. For example, until 1900, "official" vows for women religious could only be taken by those observing enclosure (see Periculoso, 1298, Pope Boniface VIII). This was changed in 1900 with Conditae a Christo, and the changes (issued in the Normae of 1901) were incorporated into canon law in 1917. The same can be said about this edict of the Council of Trent.

[Sister Leticia]

18 minutes ago, GraceUk said:

But on the other hand you might get a saintly married person and a not very saintly priest or nun.

That's right. Being a religious isn't a guarantee of holiness. We enter with our flaws and limitations, as well as what we desire to be like. And we don't necessarily become as saintly as we'd want to be! - but we strive and we stumble and we try again, just as anyone else does, and we give as much of ourselves as we can.  

[BarbTherese]

I think it is also about wanting to give Jesus the very best i.e. religious life.......but unable to do so - square peg in the round hole.  It can be quite deflating and discouraging to think one can only give him second best.......ever in this life.  Worse (and inaccurate) reasoning than that too, like that He does not fully want me, just sort of tolerates me out in the ranks.    I do wonder how many would fully embrace life in the Laity determined to give Jesus the very best of second best - that would make great saints methinks.

"" He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me."

[Nunsuch]

Has anyone thought about the fact that believing one is in a "higher state" may result in a kind of spiritual arrogance? That, it seems to me, is a potential--but very serious--danger.

[BarbTherese]

I suppose it is possible and, on the other hand, there could be a fear one cannot live up to such a high bar i.e. expectations.  I mean living in the highest vocation, one would think one needed to be higher than the rank and file out in the pews, not just think one is. Spiritual pride dies only ten minutes after we do, someone insightful said.  It is a lifelong battle for all of us.  Nothing can drive out selfishness and open one to love, to mercy, compassion and understanding like married life especially with children too, I don't think anyway.  It is a hidden vocation often from the eyes of the world and The Church even.  It surprises me we don't have far more married saints than those in religious life and/or Holy Orders...........or at least equal to the latter or fast catching up with them.

Watching Holy Thursday Mass of The Last Supper from the Basilica of Mary Immaculate, the camera wandered over the congregation and I wondered what their story might be and how many real saints the camera caught and no one knew, nor living would ever know.

We had a pp scripture scholar in a parish I attended.  He opened his first homily with "What is the first commandment of God priests and religious break daily?"  SILENCE  "Increase and multiply and fill the earth" he said.

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by BarbTherese

[Nunsuch]

53 minutes ago, BarbTherese said:

  It surprises me we don't have far more married saints than those in religious life and/or Holy Orders...........or at least equal to the latter or fast catching up with them
 

If you know anything about the process of canonization, then the answer should be obvious. If not, well--it's expensive and time-consuming. Religious orders and congregations are much more likely to have the resources to pursue it than folks in the pews. A couple of good books to read on the subject are: 

Kenneth Woodward, Making Saints: How The Catholic Church Determines Who Becomes A Saint, Who Doesn'T, And Why

Kathleen Sprows Cummings, A Saint of Our Own: How the Quest for a Holy Hero Helped Catholics Become American 

We all know, of course, that not only those officially canonized are in heaven.... 

Again, I don't buy into the idea that religious life is a "higher state"--at least, not for everyone. We are ALL called to live our lives well in the state we are called to, and God is not a respecter of persons.

[BarbTherese]

42 minutes ago, Nunsuch said:

We all know, of course, that not only those officially canonized are in heaven.... 

Again, I don't buy into the idea that religious life is a "higher state"--at least, not for everyone. We are ALL called to live our lives well in the state we are called to, and God is not a respecter of persons.

Thank you for the book recommendations.  I did particularly agree with the above comments.  I do know that the process of canonization is lengthy and complex.  I have never thought about the cost of it all before.  The Good Lord makes saints and takes them through the canonization process.  Although, I do think that there is a strong human element in it all, probably mainly cost.  Everything in The Church today costs it seems to me.  But if The Lord wants canonization, no one can stop it.

The lights on my keyboard suddenly vanished and with my eyes I am finding the process of typing difficult locating the two home keys on this very fancy keyboard my son bought.....too fancy!.....and annoying. 🤛  On the other hand, the Lord has His reasons.  

[BarbTherese]

Rebooted my computer and, thank The Lord, lights are on - on my keyboard and mouse anyway  

[GraceUk]

I've thought this too about saints. Hardly any from the UK. Maybe we are just not very saintly here. But loads from Italy.  There is Margaret Sinclair whose cause has been going for years. She was a young nun from Edinburgh in Scotland who died of TB. Had a very poverty stricken upbringing in the 1930's I think, 

[BarbTherese]

15 hours ago, GraceUk said:

But loads from Italy

Perhaps the above is so because it is close to Rome and the canonization process i.e. doesn't cost so much for all the travel and accommodation costs involved! 😉

Just starting to research cost:

Quote

 

How much does canonization cost?

When a candidate is considered for sainthood, the Catholic Church's process requires research into the candidate's life, legal documentation and consultations with theologians. Expenses can range from $50,000 to $250,000.23 Feb 2014

 

Oh mmme, oh myyy ...............