The Storm before the Calm

[faith_my_eyes]

[quote name='Defender_of_the_Faith' date='Apr 21 2005, 02:53 AM']
Your persistant belief that Pope Benedict XVI was a Nazi makes me and I'm sure many others here very angry Myduwigd. It's ok to express you opinion. But this is not a matter of opinion. This is a genuine falsehood and all accounts prove it to be so. He was adamently against the Nazi movement and maintaining that he was a Nazi is extremely disrespectful and ignorant. Also, can we please not judge people by how they look. Jesus certainly didn't judge people so. [/quote]
USA Today would disagree with you??? Where are you getting your info from??? Trying to claim that he is not a former Natzi is like trying to claim that this is not a forum

Edited April 21, 2005 by faith_my_eyes

[Myles Domini]

I have not read this enitre thread nor do I intend to. I will simply say that when it comes to anybody, nevermind the Pope it is best to form an opinion of them after getting to know them. Now mywud has already said he will go and read the Pope's prior theological works in order to form an opinion of him, which is good, and we should leave him to it. In the meantime though mywud I would counsel you with caution and tact over what you say about our beloved Benedict. I know you dont mean to be offensive but to a great many of us your words are deeply offensive, especially since you dont appear to know very much about the Holy Father.

Bringing up the fact that he was once a member of the Hitler Youth is not going to sit well with many of us because of its connotations especially when you use it to substantiate a case that the Pope might be evil. Not only does the Holy Father think Nazism is a form of idolatry (which of course it is) but his family were forced to flee to the Alps because his Father was a policeman who would not comply with the Hitler's illigitmate exercise of [i]law[/i]. He was forced into the Nazi ranks and when he was old enough he deserted showing that his own Father's influence bore more upon him than the 'Fuherer's'.

Indeed, if you reflect upon his career as a theologian in his independent works and not in his magisterial ones you can see he has retained a love of freedom. Of independence and pushing the boundaries. There are pictures of him sitting next to Karl Rahner at Vatican II and he was part of the theological clique who acted as the intellectual backbone behind that General Council. Indeed, with the peritus of Vatican II, Henri de Lubac, and the famed Hans Urs Von Balthasar he founded the theological journal 'Communio'. The three of them thus perpetuated the authentic spirit of Vatican II by giving the ressourcement a new voice.

Benedict XVI is a long standing friend of the Jewish Cardinal Lustiger and other cardinals of diverse ethnicity. He remains until this day through the communion of saints a deep friend of that great Pole, John Paul II, and shows no inclination towards Nazism. In his book 'Called to Communion' he reinforces his ideas of an ecclesiology based upon communio with a reduction of the role of Bishops conferences and an increase in the autonomy of the individual Bishops. He is not a centraliser at all, he simply insists on the purity of Catholic doctrine. Any Bishop whose initiatives are not tainted by heresy will find a new freedom under Benedict XVI who has always thought it necessary to remove unneccesary layers of red tape. Moreover, in his book 'Principles of Catholic Theology' he advocates reinterpreting the jurdistictional primacy of Rome in a way more closely in line with his ressourcement thinking modelled on that of the 1st millenia of Christianity thus making me hopeful for ecumenical relations between Rome and Constantinople under his Pontificate.

If his eyes are ringed its because he is tired. He tried to resign from the Roman Curia three times in the past fifteen years and suffered a cereberal hemorrage in 1991 indeed that temporarily affected his field of vision. Even yesterday in his address to the Cardinals following their concelebrated Mass he spoke about his trepidation and how he feels John Paul the Great still telling him 'Do not be afraid'. Even in death he remains devoted to the man who forced him to stay in Rome thrice and thus ensured his election as Pope, which I think the Pope wanted when he moved to immediately make Ratzinger dean of the College when the post opened. John Paul the Great made sure that Ratzinger could not leave Rome to return to his studies and by his actions he ensured Ratzinger would come to the forefront in the event of his death, which I think he knew was immanent.

John Paul the Great trusted this man with our faith for 23 years. Now lets trust him for as long as he God allows him hold of the keys to his house.

[Ash Wednesday]

Smiles for Myles.

[faith_my_eyes]

I don't think that myduwigd meant that is was because his eyes are ringed is what makes him scary. I have rings around my eyes and I'm not even that old. I thnk he meant something else. You need to read everything that was said. I know what she means and I'm not sure if I can trust the Pope either. KEEP AN OPEN MIND.

[Ash Wednesday]

Okay, let's back up just a second.

If you and myduwigd would both please calm down, I was under the impression that faith_my_eyes was speaking of knowing myduwigd well as a friend and getting to know HIM (or her) better. If I'm mistaken on that one, I apologize, but your posts are kind of rambling and confusing.

I wasn't the one who flew off the handle telling anyone to "get lost" so if there was anyone "looking to get into a fight" I don't think I would be the only one. So if you're here to talk about God, love, and charity, show some of it yourself, please. Thank you.

[myduwigd]

[quote name='Myles' date='Apr 21 2005, 03:00 AM'] I have not read this enitre thread nor do I intend to. [/quote]
Well, then i do not think that you have the right to comment if you have not read everything that I have stated.
I have read his homily and he seems to think purely intellectually. I did not see much else. And since you guys have been saying that he was the intellectual backbone that makes me go hmmm....
But then the Pope is not what this argument is about. YOu are not listening to me and you are simply disrespecting me. I am not obliged to like the Pope, the Catholic church cannot make me do that. There is nothing that says that I am not allowed to disagree with the cardinals decision.
I really wish people would start being civil around here or actually start defending me. It doesnt matter if you disagree with me in this case, you haveno right to condemn me.

[Myles Domini]

[quote]I don't think that myduwigd meant that is was because his eyes are ringed is what makes him scary. I have rings around my eyes and I'm not even that old. I thnk he meant something else. You need to read everything that was said. I know what she means and I'm not sure if I can trust the Pope either. KEEP AN OPEN MIND. [/quote]

Likewise my friend, likewise...

As you might have garnered from my post wherein I list some ideas and books in which he discusses them I am not new to this man and his career. I know it quite intricately because by all accounts he is my favourite modern theologian. I, as an afro-carribean young black skinned youth, have never sensed that this man is anything other than wholly Catholic. In the sense that both he and his theology are edifying to the entire universal Church about how we should approach Our Lord and neighbours.

I actually defended your friend and said she should (sorry for using he before) be allowed to read what Benedict XVI has written for herself and then make a fully informed judgement before anyone makes any further comments about her. That is because I am confident that once she is acquainted with the man's writings she, like I did, will grow to see this man as a true Catholic whose only ambition is to live and breathe the Lord our God.

Have a read of this article by Michael Novak you may feel more comfortable with Benedict XVI thereafter:
[url="http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/editorial/outlook/3145350"]http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/e...outlook/3145350[/url]

As for myduwigd I think a good place for her to start would be His Holiness' book 'Milestones' which he wrote in 1977 when he became a Cardinal tracing his life back to his birth. I think as a psych major she should be able to learn more about the man in through his own words in the retelling of the life than from me or any of the other phatmassers.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Myles' date='Apr 21 2005, 03:00 AM'] I have not read this enitre thread nor do I intend to. I will simply say that when it comes to anybody, nevermind the Pope it is best to form an opinion of them after getting to know them. Now mywud has already said he will go and read the Pope's prior theological works in order to form an opinion of him, which is good, and we should leave him to it. In the meantime though mywud I would counsel you with caution and tact over what you say about our beloved Benedict. I know you dont mean to be offensive but to a great many of us your words are deeply offensive, especially since you dont appear to know very much about the Holy Father.

Bringing up the fact that he was once a member of the Hitler Youth is not going to sit well with many of us because of its connotations especially when you use it to substantiate a case that the Pope might be evil. Not only does the Holy Father think Nazism is a form of idolatry (which of course it is) but his family were forced to flee to the Alps because his Father was a policeman who would not comply with the Hitler's illigitmate exercise of [i]law[/i]. He was forced into the Nazi ranks and when he was old enough he deserted showing that his own Father's influence bore more upon him than the 'Fuherer's'.

Indeed, if you reflect upon his career as a theologian in his independent works and not in his magisterial ones you can see he has retained a love of freedom. Of independence and pushing the boundaries. There are pictures of him sitting next to Karl Rahner at Vatican II and he was part of the theological clique who acted as the intellectual backbone behind that General Council. Indeed, with the peritus of Vatican II, Henri de Lubac, and the famed Hans Urs Von Balthasar he founded the theological journal 'Communio'. The three of them thus perpetuated the authentic spirit of Vatican II by giving the ressourcement a new voice.

Benedict XVI is a long standing friend of the Jewish Cardinal Lustiger and other cardinals of diverse ethnicity. He remains until this day through the communion of saints a deep friend of that great Pole, John Paul II, and shows no inclination towards Nazism. In his book 'Called to Communion' he reinforces his ideas of an ecclesiology based upon communio with a reduction of the role of Bishops conferences and an increase in the autonomy of the individual Bishops. He is not a centraliser at all, he simply insists on the purity of Catholic doctrine. Any Bishop whose initiatives are not tainted by heresy will find a new freedom under Benedict XVI who has always thought it necessary to remove unneccesary layers of red tape. Moreover, in his book 'Principles of Catholic Theology' he advocates reinterpreting the jurdistictional primacy of Rome in a way more closely in line with his ressourcement thinking modelled on that of the 1st millenia of Christianity thus making me hopeful for ecumenical relations between Rome and Constantinople under his Pontificate.

If his eyes are ringed its because he is tired. He tried to resign from the Roman Curia three times in the past fifteen years and suffered a cereberal hemorrage in 1991 indeed that temporarily affected his field of vision. Even yesterday in his address to the Cardinals following their concelebrated Mass he spoke about his trepidation and how he feels John Paul the Great still telling him 'Do not be afraid'. Even in death he remains devoted to the man who forced him to stay in Rome thrice and thus ensured his election as Pope, which I think the Pope wanted when he moved to immediately make Ratzinger dean of the College when the post opened. John Paul the Great made sure that Ratzinger could not leave Rome to return to his studies and by his actions he ensured Ratzinger would come to the forefront in the event of his death, which I think he knew was immanent.

John Paul the Great trusted this man with our faith for 23 years. Now lets trust him for as long as he God allows him hold of the keys to his house. [/quote]
[font="Courier"]well said [/font]

[Ash Wednesday]

myduwigd,
I am sorry that you feel so attacked left and right. I don't think anyone is deliberately intending to tear you to pieces, or single you out as being the "lesser" one here.

I don't think anyone is asking you to be happy about the pope, or to not bring up any concerns. Heck, I'm the first to admit that I'm nervous about the future and all of the unfamiliarity. I see someone different as pope, and it's weird. It's going to take a lot of getting used to. Ratzinger wasn't my first choice, but I accept it and I respect the man, and want to keep an open mind about the future. We need to trust God's plan in time. The eyes may be a window to the soul, but in the end only God knows the very state of that soul.

But in a sense, when you say the Church doesn't oblige us to "like" the pope -- are we not all called to charity? Love of God, neighbor, and even our enemies? I'm not talking about warm fuzzy feelings in the heart, or throwing a Habemus Papam party here. But we do need to show respect.

Even if he isn't someone you can warm up to, or you may feel uncomfortable with him -- again, charity isn't always about emotions and feelings and we can't always help how we feel -- he still needs our prayers and respect as the head of the Church. Our Catholic faith does ask this of us.

[argent_paladin]

Lies that must be countered!!!


1. Lie: Ratzinger was a Nazi.
Truth: Ratzinger was never a member of the Nazi party. He was a member of Hitler Youth, but he was forcibly enrolled at 14. Being forced into the German army or Hitler Youth is NOT the same thing as being a Nazi. If it were, then 99% of everyone who lived in Germany from 1936-1945 would be considered a Nazi. Pope John Paul II hated Naziism and was one of the greatest friends to the Jewish People, and he appointed Ratzinger and collaborated with him for 24 years. Obviously, John Paul the Great had no problem with his membership in Hitler Youth.

2. Lie: Catholic membership is dropping in the US and Europe because the Church is to "old-fashioned" and "strict".
Truth: If that were the reason, then the Lutheran Church would be packed in Germany and the Anglican Church would be packed in England. In America, Presbyterians, Methodists and others who ordain women, bless same-sex marriages, no longer preach about hell or sin and have married clergy should be growing quickly. In reality, no one is going to these "mainline" (more like sideline) churches. In fact, the fastest growing groups are the ones that are the most traditional, ask the most of their members and have distinct boundaries of belief and behavior, such as the Mormons, Evangelicals, Muslims, and Catholics. Modern society and values destroys everything they touch: the Churches that adopt these mores, the cultures that have them (they are commiting suicide by abortion and contraception), and individuals who believe them.
Why go to Church if it tells you exactly the same thing as society? What would be the point?

3. Lie: Benedict will dismantle the legacy of Vatican II.
Truth: Benedict was the only Cardinal under 80 who participated in Vatican II. He was an expert, recognized for his brilliance though he was only 35. He taught theology after and helped implement the Council's reforms as Archbishop of Munich. For 24 years, under the direction of John Paul the Great, he helped shape the post-Vatican II Church. Do you think that he did anything that JPG disagreed with? Do you think that 2/3rds of the Cardinals of the Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit would dismantle the Council? Benedict is the least likely to challenge the validity of the Council, since he was there, he saw it happen and talked to the people. He was a close collaborator with JPG who was also there. That is something you can't learn just by reading documents or somehow absorbing "the Spirit of Vatican II". HE is the world's leading expert on Vatican II.

4. Lie: Benedict is very different from John Paul.
Truth: Truth be told, we don't know, because Benedict has been Benedict for a day. But clearly the Cardinals chose him because they believed he was the best one to continue the legacy of JPG. He knew JPG better than any other cardinal, is the greatest intellectual in the college (like JPG), and in fact, the archdiocese of Munich and the Archdiocese of Krakow are quite close to one another (only separated by the Czech Republic). So, if you dislike the views of Benedict, then you disliked the views of JPG. As JPG said at the beginning of his pontificate, "Do not be afraid."

[Catholictothecore]

well said...also, no one is elected pope without it being the will of the Holy Spirit. We're being guided here, guys...if we're smart, all we have to do is not be afraid to follow it. I'm sure part of Papa Ben wants to be afraid, but he's not.

[Catholictothecore]

a poem that I think we could all use....

"Besieger at the Gates"
by Jessica Powers

"One comes from the east, O Church
my mother,
His sword drips with blood; his mouth is
curled with hate.
Shall I bar his approach, and every other?"
She said: "Swing wide the gate!"

"He dares inside, directed by the devil,
Whose words are written on the winds
of hell."
She spoke: "Death has not sealed him in
his evil;
Point out the place I dwell!"

"I am your child!" I cried, "your robes en-
fold me.
Give me a spear and I will run him
through."
"He is also a child of mine," she told me,
"Whom love must claim anew!"

"His hand is on your door, soon you can
never
Escape him. Speak! I hear his fearful tread."
"Though I can weep, though I can bleed
forever,
I cannot die," she said.

He entered in. I saw sunlight flash on
the steel as to her boson it was pressed.
I saw her face, all beauty and compassion,
[u]above the sword he buried in her breast.[/u]

I'll let you interprete this for yourself. If you'd like mine, pm me.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 21 2005, 02:32 AM'] Ahem...it's spelled "psyche."

[/quote]
ok...yes it is psych major. psychology. It's shorthand that we psych majors use because "psyche" is a word...smartypants.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='faith_my_eyes' date='Apr 21 2005, 03:56 AM'] USA Today would disagree with you??? Where are you getting your info from??? Trying to claim that he is not a former Natzi is like trying to claim that this is not a forum [/quote]
USA Today is far from being a reliable source.

Involuntary involvement as a child in an organization which was adamantly opposed to the same religion he now represents is certainly NOT the same as formal involvement in a genocidal movement, nor does it mean in any way that he has Nazi tendencies or leanings.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Apr 21 2005, 12:56 PM'] ok...yes it is psych major.  psychology.  It's shorthand that we psych majors use because "psyche" is a word...smartypants. [/quote]
He spelled it "psychi" originally. I found it ironic that he is claiming his knowledge of psychology as his basis, but doesn't spell the word properly. At the same time, this is now the third semester I've taken a psych course and I know very well that it is far from an exact science. There are many more factors than just "he belonged to a Nazi group as a child, and is therefore a Nazi with Nazi tendencies."

As I pointed out, John Paul the Great worked to supply minerals for the Nazi war machine, as he worked in a quarry, but he was forced into it and adamantly opposed the Nazi political movement. There is a distinct difference between formal voluntary involvement and informal involuntary involvement.