Another jab at Shiavo's parents...

[Didacus]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Jun 22 2005, 05:15 PM']Sure, I've not denied medical intervention... but it was necessary intervention to provide for a basic need... not something extraordinary. We are called in the Catechism to take all ordinary measures for the preservation of life, it is the extraordinary measures that are optional.
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I think then our disagreement is between what is ordinary and what is extraordinary treatment. I would classify a feeding tube as extraordinary. At least I would tend to. Life-support will fulfill the basic need of breathing by forcing air into the lungs, yet if I recall, you had no dilema about disconnecting life support upon an individual.

A feeding tube is just a different life support, uncommon maybe?

And let me re-affirm that although I see nothing against removing the feeding tube, feeding her and giving her water through ordinary means should have been made possible.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Jun 24 2005, 07:04 AM']I think then our disagreement is between what is ordinary and what is extraordinary treatment.  I would classify a feeding tube as extraordinary.  At least I would tend to.  Life-support will fulfill the basic need of breathing by forcing air into the lungs, yet if I recall, you had no dilema about disconnecting life support upon an individual.

A feeding tube is just a different life support, uncommon maybe?

And let me re-affirm that although I see nothing against removing the feeding tube, feeding her and giving her water through ordinary means should have been made possible.
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Here's the issue: Terri's stomach, intestines... digestive system WORKED COMPLETELY FINE.... ON ITS OWN. Thus, medical interventions aren't going to be extraordinary. A heart-lung machine forces the heart to pump blood and the lungs to expand because they CAN NOT do it themselves. You take the person off the machine, the heart stops, the lungs don't move and they die. You pull out Terri's feeding tube and her entire digestive system still works... it takes her TWO WEEKS to slowly die from dehydration (as the coroner's report attests!). It's like locking a baby in a closet and refusing to feed it until it starves to death...

Extraordinary means force the BODY to work. Terri's body was working properly, just troubles swallowing but M. Shiavo refused to allow her to have therapy to learn to swallow on her own again... thus, in order to get food and water to her stomach, they used a feeding tube.

Like I said somewhere before... A kid I went to high school with talked through a hole in his throat-- and couldn't eat through his mouth, so he had a feeding tube (and will have to have one his entire life). Other than the fact that he's not confined to his bed like Terri, they have most everything else in common (he even had minor brain damage). Is it okay to remove his feeding tube?

[Didacus]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Jun 24 2005, 07:50 AM'][snip]

Terri's body was working properly, just troubles swallowing but M. Shiavo refused to allow her to have therapy to learn to swallow on her own again...

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THAT is where I see the wrong, not in the removing of the feeding tube. the feeding tube wasx the means by which to ingest the food, not digest it. Like a lung machine forces air into the lungs, but does not perform the functions of the lung itself. the lung machine forces the lungs to 'ingest' the air - that is all.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Jun 24 2005, 07:50 AM'][snip]
Like I said somewhere before... A kid I went to high school with talked through a hole in his throat-- and couldn't eat through his mouth, so he had a feeding tube (and will have to have one his entire life). Other than the fact that he's not confined to his bed like Terri, they have most everything else in common (he even had minor brain damage). Is it okay to remove his feeding tube?
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Refusing extraordinary treatment is not a sin? If the 'kid' you refer to chose to have such means, it is perfectly permissible. I do not contrest this.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Jun 24 2005, 09:00 AM']THAT is where I see the wrong, not in the removing of the feeding tube.  the feeding tube wasx the means by which to ingest the food, not digest it.  Like a lung machine forces air into the lungs, but does not perform the functions of the lung itself.  the lung machine forces the lungs to 'ingest' the air - that is all.
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NO... the lung machine forces the lungs to perform because the don't perfom on their own... I'm serious. Get out a medical textbook or something.

[quote]Refusing extraordinary treatment is not a sin? If the 'kid' you refer to chose to have such means, it is perfectly permissible. I do not contrest this.[/quote]
No, it's not a sin. But a feeding tube is NOT extraordinary means. The body works completely fine (with a heart/lung machine the body does NOT work on it's own).
The kid I went to high school with could walk, talk, and do a lot on his own (he had to be supervised because of the brain damage)... but you would honestly think it okay for his parents to remove his feeding tube (when it's IMPOSSIBLE for him to be fed through his mouth... he would choke to death and suffocate)? Honestly? It would take him that same 2 weeks, if not more before he died like Terri.

...you take away a heart/lung machine and the person dies within minutes.

Other than that. I don't think I can calmly discuss this topic anymore, as my opinion is not going to waver in the slightest bit because it goes against the principles of the Catholic faith:

CCC 2277 "Whatever its motives and means, [u]direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons[/u]. [b]It is morally unacceptable[/b].

Thus an act or[b] omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person [/b]and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator. The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded. "

[Didacus]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Jun 24 2005, 08:27 AM']NO... the lung machine forces the lungs to perform because the don't perfom on their own... I'm serious. Get out a medical textbook or something.
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Whatever... So breathing aparratus only force air into the lungs... i was not refering to an iron lung...

The misfunction of her body was that it could no longer ingest food on its own... not a question of digestion.

I restate that this is where we disagree.

I believe we agree on just about everything else...

[Didacus]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Jun 24 2005, 08:27 AM'][snip]
CCC 2277 "Whatever its motives and means, [u]direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons[/u]. [b]It is morally unacceptable[/b].
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By reading this, refusal of any medical treatment that may extend life is unaccpetable.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Jun 24 2005, 08:27 AM'][snip]
Other than that. I don't think I can calmly discuss this topic anymore, as my opinion is not going to waver in the slightest bit because it goes against the principles of the Catholic faith:
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As you wish...