scardella Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 9 2005, 12:00 PM']I also emailed him at his office email address. Perhaps if I can't get the question in tonight he will answer through email. [right][snapback]783857[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Did you provide a link to the discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I have just decided that previous is going to be my last post on this topic. We seem to be getting nowhere and probably will not. I think the problem is the lack of clarity on understanding the difference between something being inherent in another, and something lacking or having an absence. In other words something having a deprivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 [quote name='scardella' date='Nov 9 2005, 01:15 PM']Did you provide a link to the discussion? [right][snapback]783878[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No, I seriously doubt he would look if I did. I simply asked him the question that was asked here: "Could Mary have sinned?" Even if his answer is different than what we have been talking about, it shoudl be interesting nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Mary still couldn't have sinned. Regardless of how you read your English. Sorry, Al, but for all your touting of the English language, Mary was sinless. She could not sin, because she had the same human nature as Christ. She was excluded from Original Sin and she always chose the good. She could not sin, because her nature would not allow it. Her capacity to sin, and her sinlessness are mutually exclusive. The flaw is in the English language NOT in the theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 As a clarification point, Cam, to get back on track a little, you have said that Mary had a perfected nature. Is there anything to say that Eve, pre-Fall, did not have a perfect human nature? Was she lacking in anything that Mary had? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Nov 9 2005, 04:46 PM']Mary still couldn't have sinned. Regardless of how you read your English. Sorry, Al, but for all your touting of the English language, Mary was sinless. She could not sin, because she had the same human nature as Christ. She was excluded from Original Sin and she always chose the good. She could not sin, because her nature would not allow it. Her capacity to sin, and her sinlessness are mutually exclusive. The flaw is in the English language NOT in the theology. [right][snapback]784146[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What funny is I can't believe ya'll seem to be saying the exact same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I never said the flaw was in your theology. But it is correct in english and theology to say "Mary could have sinned" or "Mary couldn't have sinned" if you explain either one. Except for the one you're saying, it would be more appropriate I think to say "Mary wouldn't have sinned" but that's just me, either way is a correct way of describing it. That's what I've been sayin, Q. He's exploiting an interpretation of the original question and continuing an argument on which we all really agree when it comes down to it, when he's actually explained the nuance he's using. Mary held the capacity for sin is synonomous with Mary could have sinned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 9 2005, 05:34 PM']I never said the flaw was in your theology. But it is correct in english and theology to say "Mary could have sinned" or "Mary couldn't have sinned" if you explain either one. Except for the one you're saying, it would be more appropriate I think to say "Mary wouldn't have sinned" but that's just me, either way is a correct way of describing it. That's what I've been sayin, Q. He's exploiting an interpretation of the original question and continuing an argument on which we all really agree when it comes down to it, when he's actually explained the nuance he's using. Mary held the capacity for sin is synonomous with Mary could have sinned. [right][snapback]784204[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I agree w/ you. It's still interesting to me, at least, in terms of fleshing out my understanding of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Nov 9 2005, 05:34 PM']I never said the flaw was in your theology. But it is correct in english and theology to say "Mary could have sinned" or "Mary couldn't have sinned" if you explain either one. Except for the one you're saying, it would be more appropriate I think to say "Mary wouldn't have sinned" but that's just me, either way is a correct way of describing it. That's what I've been sayin, Q. He's exploiting an interpretation of the original question and continuing an argument on which we all really agree when it comes down to it, when he's actually explained the nuance he's using. Mary held the capacity for sin is synonomous with Mary could have sinned. [right][snapback]784204[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No, I am not. Al, you are missing the point. You have been missing the point, since you stopped looking at this from a theological point of view. Mary's nature is not like our nature. It is perfected. Insofar as it is perfected, she could not sin, otherwise it WOULD NOT be perfect. Mary's capacity for sin existed ONLY in the fact that both of her parents were fallen. However, since she participated PERFECTLY with gratia efficax, she could not sin, otherwise her nature would not be perfect. And that cannot be so. Again, MARY COULD NOT HAVE SINNED. Because her nature was perfect. If she could have sinned, she would not have a PERFECT nature. And again, that cannot be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 i got the point pages ago, both are correct definitions of 'could' and it depends on how your saying whether she could have sinned. I understand, for her to have sinned she'd have been going against her perfected nature. That's why she would not have sinned, because if she had she would not have been [i]her[/i]. same reason God could not sin, if He sinned it wouldn't be God and thus God wouldn't be sinning. she did not have the capacity to sin because her parents were fallen. she was preserved from any stain of their fall. she had the capacity to sin because she was human. humans hold that capacity to sin until they are glorified and in heaven forever. perfected humans hold the CAPACITY to sin. original sin creates a tendency towards sin, but the capacity to sin exists apart from original sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Nov 9 2005, 08:36 PM']No, I am not. Al, you are missing the point. You have been missing the point, since you stopped looking at this from a theological point of view. Mary's nature is not like our nature. It is perfected. Insofar as it is perfected, she could not sin, otherwise it WOULD NOT be perfect. Mary's capacity for sin existed ONLY in the fact that both of her parents were fallen. However, since she participated PERFECTLY with gratia efficax, she could not sin, otherwise her nature would not be perfect. And that cannot be so. Again, MARY COULD NOT HAVE SINNED. Because her nature was perfect. If she could have sinned, she would not have a PERFECT nature. And again, that cannot be so. [right][snapback]784326[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Cam, you agree, and he's been trying to prove that to you for pages...That's when it left the Theological... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Nov 10 2005, 02:41 AM']Cam, you agree, and he's been trying to prove that to you for pages...That's when it left the Theological... [right][snapback]784612[/snapback][/right] [/quote] precisely!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I do not believe that's theologically provable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 (edited) Well....I've got the word from on high, or at as high as it gets around here. The opinion of Dr. Mark Miravalle is basically that Mary indeed could have sinned. He says that he certainly sympathizes with those who want to put forth that she could have not sinned, but to say so would diminish the power of her immaculate conception and her 'fiat'. He says that Mary had to make the free choice to say yes, and a free choice includes the ability to have said no. He basically nodded his head in agreement that Mary participated in original holiness and had the same ability as the First Eve to chose against God. Edited November 10, 2005 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 10 2005, 10:29 AM']Well....I've got the word from on high, or at as high as it gets around here. The opinion of Dr. Mark Miravalle is basically...[right][snapback]784732[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Great. Now go ask him if God could make a rock so big he couldn't lift it, and all will be well. : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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