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[url="http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa111901a.htm"][b]The Real-Life Wizard Behind "Harry Potter"
Over 600 years before Hogwarts School was created, an alchemist claimed to have discovered the incredible secrets of "the sorcerer's stone" - possibly even immortality[/b][/url]

The phenomenal success of J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter books, and the film based on "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone," is introducing a whole new generation of children (and their parents) to the world of magic, sorcery and alchemy.

What is not widely known, however, is that at least one of the characters - and his magical quest - referred to in "Harry Potter" is based on a real alchemist and his strange experiments.

According to the Harry Potter stories, Albus Dumbledore, the headmaster of Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, earned his reputation as a great wizard due, in part, to his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel. And although Dumbledore, Harry and all the other teachers and students at Hogwarts are fictional, Nicholas Flamel was a real-life alchemist who dabbled in some of the most mystical corners of the magical arts, including the quest for an Elixir of Life. Some wonder, in fact, if Flamel is still alive!

When "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" was written, Flamel's age was pegged at 665 years. That would be just about right since the real Flamel was born in France around 1330. Through an astonishing series of events, he became one of the most famous alchemists of the 14th century. And his story is almost as fantastic and enchanting as Harry Potter's.

An Incredible Dream Comes True

As an adult, Nicholas Flamel worked as a bookseller in Paris. It was a humble trade, but one that provided him with the relatively rare abilities to read and write. He worked from a small stall near the Cathedral of Saint-Jacques la Boucherie where, with his assistants, he copied and "illuminated" (illustrated) books.

One night, Flamel had a strange and vivid dream in which an angel appeared to him. The radiant, winged creature presented to Flamel a beautiful book with pages that seemed to be of fine bark and a cover of worked copper. Flamel later wrote down what the angel spoke to him: "Look well at this book, Nicholas. At first you will understand nothing in it - neither you nor any other man. But one day you will see in it that which no other man will be able to see."

Just as Flamel was about to take the book from the angel's hands, he awoke from his dream. Soon after, however, the dream was to weave its way into reality. One day when Flamel was working alone in his shop, a stranger approached him who was desperate to sell an old book for some much-needed money. Flamel immediately recognized the strange, copper-bound book as the one offered by the angel in his dream. He eagerly bought it for the sum of two florins.

The copper cover was engraved with peculiar diagrams and words, only some of which Flamel recognized as Greek. The pages were like none he had ever encountered in his trade. Instead of parchment, they seemed to be made from the bark of sapling trees. Flamel was able to discern from the first pages of the book that it was written by someone who called himself Abraham the Jew - "a prince, priest, Levite, astrologer and philosopher."

The strong memory of his dream and his own intuition convinced Flamel that this was no ordinary book - that it contained arcane knowledge that he feared he might not be qualified to read and understand. It could contain, he felt, the very secrets of nature and life.

Flamel's trade had brought him familiarity with the writings of the alchemists of his day, and he knew something of transmutation (the changing of one thing into another, such as lead into gold) and knew well the many symbols that alchemists used. But the symbols and writing in this book were beyond Flamel's understanding, although he strove to solve its mysteries for over 21 years.

The Quest for Translation

Because the book had been written by a Jew and much of its text was in ancient Hebrew, he reasoned that a scholarly Jew might be able to help him translate the book. Unfortunately, religious persecution had recently driven all of the Jews out of France. After copying only a few pages of the book, Flamel packed them and embarked on a pilgrimage to Spain, where many of the exiled Jews had settled.

The journey was unsuccessful, however. Many of the Jews, understandably suspicious of Christians at this time, were reluctant to help Flamel, so he began his journey home. Flamel had all but given up his quest when he chanced upon an introduction to a very old, learned Jew by the name of Maestro Canches who lived in Leon. Canches, too, was not eager to help Flamel until he mentioned Abraham the Jew. Canches had certainly heard of this great sage who was wise in the teachings of the mysterious kabbalah.

Canches was able to translate the few pages that Flamel brought with him and wanted to return to Paris with him to examine the rest of the book. But Jews were still not allowed in Paris and Canches' extreme old age would have made the journey difficult anyway. As fate would have it, Canches died before he could help Flamel any further.

Successful Transmutation

Returning to his Paris shop and his wife, Flamel seemed a changed man - joyous and full of life. He felt somehow transformed by his encounter with Canches. Though the old Jew had deciphered only those few pages, Flamel was able to use that knowledge to understand the entire book. He continued to study, research and meditate on the mysterious book for three years, after which he was able to perform a feat that had eluded alchemists for centuries - transmutation. Following the exact instructions provided by Abraham the Jew in the book, Flamel claimed to transform a half-pound of mercury into silver, and then into pure gold.


Nicholas Flamel

This was said to be accomplished with the aid of a "philosopher's stone." (Incidentally, the British title of "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" is "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone.") For Flamel, this was reputed to include a strange, reddish "projection powder."

Turning base metals into silver and gold... it's the stuff of superstition, fantasy and folklore, right? Quite possibly. The historical records show, however, that this humble bookseller inexplicably became wealthy at this time - so wealthy, in fact, that he built housing for the poor, established free hospitals and made generous donations to churches. Virtually none of his newfound wealth was used to enhance his own way of living, but was used exclusively for charitable purposes. The transmutation Flamel achieved was not only with metals, it was said, but within his own mind and heart. But if transmutation is impossible, what was the source of Flamel's riches?

Flamel Dies... or Does He?

In the Harry Potter book, the evil Lord Voldemort seeks the sorcerer's stone to attain immortality. The same power of the stone that brings about transmutation can also result in the Elixir of Life, which would allow a person to live forever... or, by some accounts, at least 1,000 years.

Part of the legend that surrounds the true story of Nicholas Flamel is that he succeeded in the transmutation of metals and in achieving immortality.

The historical records say that Flamel died at the ripe old age of 88 - a very great age at that time. But there is a curious footnote to this story that causes one to wonder.

After Flamel's official death, his house was ransacked again and again by those seeking the philosopher's stone and the miraculous "projection powder." It was never found. Missing too was the book of Abraham the Jew. During the reign of Louis XIII in the first half of the 17th century, however, a descendent of Flamel by the name of Dubois might have inherited the book and some of the projection powder. With the king himself as a witness, Dubois allegedly used the powder to turn balls of lead into gold. This startling feat attracted the attention of the powerful Cardinal Richelieu who demanded to know how the powder worked. But Dubois only possessed what remained of his ancestor's powder and was unable to read the book of Abraham the Jew. He therefore could not reveal Flamel's secrets.

It is said that Richelieu took the book of Abraham the Jew and built a laboratory to exploit its secrets. The attempt was unsuccessful, however, and all traces of the book, save perhaps for a few of its illustrations, have since disappeared.

Later in that century, King Louis XIV dispatched an archeologist named Paul Lucas on a scientific fact-finding mission in the East. While in Broussa, Turkey, Lucas met an old philosopher who told him that there were wise men in the world who possessed knowledge of the philosopher's stone, who kept that knowledge to themselves, and who lived many hundreds, even thousands of years. Nicholas Flamel, he told Lucas, is one of those men. The old man even told Lucas of the book of Abraham the Jew and how it came into Flamel's possession. Most amazingly, he told Lucas that Flamel and his wife were still alive! Their funerals were faked, he said, and both of them migrated to India, where they still lived.

Is it possible that Flamel really did stumble upon the secret of the philosopher's stone and achieved immortality? Does the ancient knowledge of transmutation and the Elixir of Life really exist?

If so, Nicholas Flamel might still be alive. In fact, he might be taking great delight in the magical adventures of Harry Potter.

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[quote name='saint_wannabe' post='1335301' date='Jul 19 2007, 10:35 PM']exorcists are like doctors of the soul. they know what their talking about and i think we should listen to them. remember the time when they said smoking wasn't harmful and everyone was smoking including the kids, and they all believed it was harmless until they experienced the harmful effects of it for them selfs.
in the same way i think some of you will realize this once it hits closer to home.
not to offend anyone just saying.

p.s. has this thread convinced anyone otherwise or no? and if no why?[/quote]

I have been convinced that Harry Potter needs to be taken into consideration with more caution. I will still go see the movie...but, for my own personal love of fantasy, nothing else. I do agree with what KnightofChrist is worried about. The occult is definitely related with these series. Actually, my friend knew a man who used to be a devil worshiper. He converted to Catholicism just a couple of years ago, and claims that some of the spells from Harry Potter are what he would say in there meetings...or whatever they were. It opened up a lot of thought for me when I heard this.

[quote name='saint_wannabe' post='1335337' date='Jul 19 2007, 11:05 PM']i think i've given up on reading all together lol :lol:[/quote]

:shock: That's impossible. Books are one of the greatest gifts God gave to man.

[quote name='jckinsman' post='1335489' date='Jul 20 2007, 01:01 AM']I refuse to suscribe to anything that people are overly freaky for. Why mess with anything questionable????? Its "good" because it makes children read????????? That's crazy talk! Kids are motivated by the hype! I have a hard time believing that an author as strange as this can produce anything worth my time. I really do not care that there are people are out there saying that they are" harmless" and" I can read them and it hurts nothing"
Sing your merry song down that wide road baby! I myself CHOOSE to refrain from what I know to be slippery. JC[/quote]

I agree with you completely. Usually, if todays society is smitten with it...I run from it. ;)

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1335523' date='Jul 20 2007, 02:41 AM']Some Parallels between Potter and Wicca, or the occult
Cliodna was Bird goddess of the afterlife and daughter of the druid Gebann who can take the form of a sea-wave or wren, she is still known in wiccan and occultist circles.

Circe was a greek queen goddess or sometimes nymph or sorceress who turned people into swine, she also is still known in wiccan and occultist circles.

Paracelsus (1493 - 1541) was a alchemist or sorcerer, known for alternative healings, ceremonial magick, and alchemy.
Nicolas Flamel (c 1330-1417) was a alchemist or sorcerer, and bookseller. His "age" at the time of the first release of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone was around 666 years.
---------------------
Parallels between Wicca and Satan

The Names of the deities of Wicca that are common to that of Satan...

Lucifer, Lucifera (female version "Diana"), lucifuge ("correct" spelling of lucifer), Horned One, the monster of old, Lord of the shadows, shaitan ("correct" spelling of satan)
From, Aradia: Gospel of the Witches (originally published 1899), one of Wicca's major sources.

"Diana greatly loved her brother Lucifer, the god of the Sun and of the Moon, the god of Light, who was so proud of his beauty, and who for his pride was driven from Paradise."

Now an wiccan may say this "lucifer" is not the one of the bible, yet this statement that Lucifer was "driven from Paradise" for his "pride" is clearly a reference of the Bible's (ISAIAH 14:12) and (Ezekiel 28:15-17).

ISA 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
EZE 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
EZE 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground.

From the book "Lectures On Alexandrian Wicca Witchcraft"

"It is virtually impossible to understand the witch-cult without first comprehending the position of the deities of the wicca. The god, whose name is a closely-guarded secret, but who was called in general the "horned one," was known to his Christian contemporaries as the "devil." which was called by them satan (more correctly shaitan), lucifer (more correctly lucifuge--"the light-bringer"), beelzebub and other names appropriate to the devil of the Scriptures, with whom they identify him."

Now this says something compelety different than Wicca is not Satan, it is a statement that the Church believed Wicca to be Satan. So, who we believe to be Satan is Wicca.
"The general accepted symbol of the left-handed path is the inverted triangle, called the triangle of darkness, symbolic of the Christian darkness, and it is passed on to this day among the initiates that it was a certainty in the old days that the people of the Right-Hand path feared this dark knowledge."
"When the brotherhood of light and darkness realized that the whole world was to be engulfed in a world castrophe---that of the great flood---they consulted in unity to discuss the preservation of the mysteries. After many disagreements,the Council of Light and Darkness combined their symbology. As a result, the two triangles were interlaced to form a set pattern which has been handed down to the present day as the six-pointed star."

Noahs flood?

"Aradia, in her quest of knowledge, witched to pass by the gates of the lord of death. After having traveled many miles, she found at last the entrance to the Netherlands and the guardians that were set upon the seven gates, removed her jewels and garments, saying: "nought may ye bring with ye into this land." Naked and bound she was brought before the lord of shadows, who was lucifer, his light shrouded in darkness. He recognized her and desired her for his queen would have laid down his might and dominion for her, yet she would not have him. She, the most beautiful of all created things saw only ugliness in his dark face. Thus it was that she was taken and made to kneel to death's scourge. This scene may be seen depicted in the paintings of the villa of the mysteries of Pompeii. The pain of this chastisement opened her eyes to the truth and she knew the hidden wisdom. She perceived the veil that covered the radiance of lucifer, and seeing him to be that which she sought, they made love and were one."

"Diana was the first created before all creation. In her were all things, out of her first darkness she divided herself into darkness and light. Lucifer, her brother and son, was the light; when Diana saw that light was beautify, the light was her other self, her brother lucifer, she yearned for it with exceeding great desire, wishing to receive the light again into her darkness, to swallow it up in rapture, in delight. She trembled with desire. This desire was the dawn, but lucifer the light fled from her and would not yield to her wishes."

"In ancient times, our lord of the horned one was --as he is-- the consoler, the comforter. But men know him as the dread lord of the shadows--lonely, stern, and just. But our lady, who had never loved lucifer, the horned one, upon the earth and beneath the earth, would solve all mysteries, even the mystery of death."
I dont know what else to say, the wiccan writers have said all that needs to be said.... Wicca is who Christians believe to be the Devil, Satan, Lucifer, the monster of old.[/quote]

Thanks KnightofChrist. I don't see big similarities between the practice of wicca, and HP. But, maybe the sorcery has a play in it, and I just can't remember if Rowling used some of the same ideas in her books.

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[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1335587' date='Jul 20 2007, 07:59 AM']Thanks KnightofChrist. I don't see big similarities between the practice of wicca, and HP. But, maybe the sorcery has a play in it, and I just can't remember if Rowling used some of the same ideas in her books.[/quote]

Pressed for time, but I will say wicca is witchcraft, HP uses real witchcraft, real witches real sorcerers... and other real witchcraft elements. Its a subtle seduction to real witchcraft.

HP is just a one of the devices used to make witchcraft more acceptable. I wish I could find my orgianl notes on Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. When I do I will post.

Edited by KnightofChrist
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i was watching the new this morning all they were talking about hairy potter and they showed all the children waiting in line for the new book and they were all the kids were dressed up as witches and and weird things. freaky!

[quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1335588' date='Jul 20 2007, 08:01 AM']And I'm printing out your other post to read during breakfast, KnightofChrist. :coffee:[/quote]

ahah lol KOC has the longest posts ever i have to take a day of school just to read one of them :P:

ps. i was kidding about the reading part lol

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[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1335523' date='Jul 20 2007, 01:41 AM']Some Parallels between Potter and Wicca, or the occult
Cliodna was Bird goddess of the afterlife and daughter of the druid Gebann who can take the form of a sea-wave or wren, she is still known in wiccan and occultist circles.

Circe was a greek queen goddess or sometimes nymph or sorceress who turned people into swine, she also is still known in wiccan and occultist circles.

Paracelsus (1493 - 1541) was a alchemist or sorcerer, known for alternative healings, ceremonial magick, and alchemy.
Nicolas Flamel (c 1330-1417) was a alchemist or sorcerer, and bookseller. His "age" at the time of the first release of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone was around 666 years.[/quote]

If Circe is all that dangerous, should I not read the Odyssey?

Let me tell you something about Wicca: it's a load of carp taken from a very shallow understanding of mythology. Just because someone else employs the same mythology for an entirely different purpose doesn't mean that person is copying off Wicca...it means that person is copying off mythology.

As far as using the names of alchemists...why not? They are mysterious historical figures, perfect for a fictional mystery book series. Unless you think there's a danger of readers delving into alchemy (I doubt that, since science has disproven it), there's not much harm. As for the coincidence about the 666 years old thing...I'm quite certain that the relative age of a person can't possibly mean that writing a book about them at a certain time makes the book evil.

Sorry. There are some good arguments against HP, but these aren't them. The arguments I've seen are simple, and I've already stated them: HP can be dangerous reading for those who would be lead by them into an unsafe curiosity about the occult. For those who can see through the imaginary themes and literary devices to get to the plot, I don't think there's a grave danger. I think Fr. Amorth is correct, but I also think he's being very frequently misunderstood and misrepresented and taken out of context...I don't know for certain what his intended context is, of course, but I don't see any reason to take all his statements the way they have commonly been taken.

That said, anyone, child, teen, or adult, who cannot see through the literary devices in HP should not read the books. People like to ask me, "well, if they shouldn't, then why should you?" Of course, why should anyone read a Stephen King novel, if we wouldn't recommend it to kids? Just because one audience isn't fit to read a genre or book doesn't mean the book is unsuitable for all audiences.

God bless,

Micah

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[quote]"Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard
Grindlewald in 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's
blood, and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicolas Flamel '!...'Nicolas Flamel,' she whispered dramatically, 'is
the only known maker of the Sorcerer's stone!'...She pushed the book
toward them, and Harry and Ron read: The ancient study of alchemy is
concerned with making the Sorcerer's Stone...the only Stone currently in
existence belongs to Mr. Nicolas Flamel, the noted alchemist...Mr. Flamel,
who celebrated his six hundred and sixty-fifth birthday last year, enjoys
a quiet life..." (Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone pg. 219, 220)[/quote]

Just the fact that the insinuation of the number 666 (which to us means the number of the beast and also points to Nero, noted as the first persecutor of Christians) is in a children's book is very disturbing. I mean really. Speaking of subtleties.

paz en cristo

kiris

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[quote name='Raphael' post='1335781' date='Jul 20 2007, 04:13 PM']If Circe is all that dangerous, should I not read the Odyssey?

Let me tell you something about Wicca: it's a load of carp taken from a very shallow understanding of mythology. Just because someone else employs the same mythology for an entirely different purpose doesn't mean that person is copying off Wicca...it means that person is copying off mythology.

As far as using the names of alchemists...why not? They are mysterious historical figures, perfect for a fictional mystery book series. Unless you think there's a danger of readers delving into alchemy (I doubt that, since science has disproven it), there's not much harm. As for the coincidence about the 666 years old thing...I'm quite certain that the relative age of a person can't possibly mean that writing a book about them at a certain time makes the book evil.

Sorry. There are some good arguments against HP, but these aren't them. The arguments I've seen are simple, and I've already stated them: HP can be dangerous reading for those who would be lead by them into an unsafe curiosity about the occult. For those who can see through the imaginary themes and literary devices to get to the plot, I don't think there's a grave danger. I think Fr. Amorth is correct, but I also think he's being very frequently misunderstood and misrepresented and taken out of context...I don't know for certain what his intended context is, of course, but I don't see any reason to take all his statements the way they have commonly been taken.

That said, anyone, child, teen, or adult, who cannot see through the literary devices in HP should not read the books. People like to ask me, "well, if they shouldn't, then why should you?" Of course, why should anyone read a Stephen King novel, if we wouldn't recommend it to kids? Just because one audience isn't fit to read a genre or book doesn't mean the book is unsuitable for all audiences.

God bless,

Micah[/quote]

I see where you're coming from. And when you say this: "or those who can see through the imaginary themes and literary devices to get to the plot, I don't think there's a grave danger." That was pretty much my personal opinion as well.

But, isn't it possible to be blindly led astray through the books? Or am I just going way too far with it all? :idontknow:

And I think that some books ARE inappropriate for ALL ages. Stephen King...I don't know. It doesn't seem like he's a very "healthy" writer, but I couldn't say specifically. I never thought it was worth my time to read his material, but that's just me. And I know that was just an example. ;) But books with, lets say, sex scenes, are inappropriate for everyone.

Anyway, I'm running off. Just some of my thoughts. :) Thanks!

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[quote]If Circe is all that dangerous, should I not read the Odyssey?[/quote]

Circe is dangerous when it comes to HP, Circe is offend employed in the writings of witchcraft, as with other real parts of witchcraft are used in HP they are subtle seductions, seemly innocent, but not. The same could be said for Satan himself, he after all is a being of light, "sun of the morning" he can look beautiful and innocent, and this is the way he attacks us in subtle seductions, light mixed with darkness, good mixed with bad. Something I think you partly see when you say "its not evil, but not harmless." Even the other supports of HP see the mixed shadowy morality mixed with immorality in the book.

[quote]Let me tell you something about Wicca: it's a load of carp taken from a very shallow understanding of mythology. Just because someone else employs the same mythology for an entirely different purpose doesn't mean that person is copying off Wicca...it means that person is copying off mythology.[/quote]

Wicca is also modern day Satanism/Occult/Witchcraft. HP not only employs mythology, but mythology related to Witchcraft as well as real Witchcraft itself.

[quote]As far as using the names of alchemists...why not? They are mysterious historical figures, perfect for a fictional mystery book series. Unless you think there's a danger of readers delving into alchemy (I doubt that, since science has disproven it), there's not much harm.[/quote]

Yes there is real danger because real alchemists, are sorcerers, wizards who dwell into real witchcraft, and real witchcraft is satanic. Witchcraft forbidden in the Church, from the Bible to tradition and condemn as satanic. HP employs real witchcraft elements and persons in the books.

[quote]As for the coincidence about the 666 years old thing...I'm quite certain that the relative age of a person can't possibly mean that writing a book about them at a certain time makes the book evil.[/quote]

Still rather interesting... a book of "playtime just for fun" witchcraft, employs a real witch or wizard, and his age at the time was 666 yrs, perhaps just a subtle seduction.

[quote]Sorry. There are some good arguments against HP, but these aren't them. The arguments I've seen are simple, and I've already stated them: HP can be dangerous reading for those who would be lead by them into an unsafe curiosity about the occult. For those who can see through the imaginary themes and literary devices to get to the plot, I don't think there's a grave danger. I think Fr. Amorth is correct, but I also think he's being very frequently misunderstood and misrepresented and taken out of context...I don't know for certain what his intended context is, of course, but I don't see any reason to take all his statements the way they have commonly been taken.[/quote]

Well, I will and must find my notes, but I think all that will work in the end is prayer for the defenders of Potter. J. K. Rowling employs real witches into the HP books, the Church commends witchcraft as satanism. I do not believe Fr. Amorth is being taken out of context as much as you would like, it would very much seem he condemns the book as satanic. If satanic no person no matter there age should such a book for enjoyment. Perhaps those who can see through the imaginary could read the book for research, but to find enjoyment, I dont believe Fr. Amorth would agree thats ok.

[quote]That said, anyone, child, teen, or adult, who cannot see through the literary devices in HP should not read the books. People like to ask me, "well, if they shouldn't, then why should you?" Of course, why should anyone read a Stephen King novel, if we wouldn't recommend it to kids? Just because one audience isn't fit to read a genre or book doesn't mean the book is unsuitable for all audiences.

God bless,

Micah[/quote]
Stephen King's novels are counter to Christianity but they not sold and marked to children there sold and marketed to persons of our age. Harry Potter is sold and marked to children in the millions and not marketed to persons our age.

Children look up to people of our age, they want to copy people of our age. We are to be perfect as Christ is perfect, so should children looking up to us do as we do, or do as we say? Harry Potter is a children's book, meant for kids and young teens. And anyway doesn't matter books of Witchcraft are counter to Christianity, Harry Potter uses real witchcraft, real witches, and real sorcerers.

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[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1334394' date='Jul 18 2007, 10:47 PM']Anything can lead you to hell if you try hard enough. Personally I think the evening news is far more dangerous than simple entertaining fantasy.[/quote]

Amen.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1335523' date='Jul 20 2007, 02:41 AM']Some Parallels between Potter and Wicca, or the occult
Cliodna was Bird goddess of the afterlife and daughter of the druid Gebann who can take the form of a sea-wave or wren, she is still known in wiccan and occultist circles.

Circe was a greek queen goddess or sometimes nymph or sorceress who turned people into swine, she also is still known in wiccan and occultist circles.

Paracelsus (1493 - 1541) was a alchemist or sorcerer, known for alternative healings, ceremonial magick, and alchemy.
Nicolas Flamel (c 1330-1417) was a alchemist or sorcerer, and bookseller. His "age" at the time of the first release of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone was around 666 years.[/quote]

The last line seems to imply a bit of Hexakosioihexekontahexaphobia, no?

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1335523' date='Jul 20 2007, 02:41 AM']---------------------
Parallels between Wicca and Satan

The Names of the deities of Wicca that are common to that of Satan...

Lucifer, Lucifera (female version "Diana"), lucifuge ("correct" spelling of lucifer), Horned One, the monster of old, Lord of the shadows, shaitan ("correct" spelling of satan)
From, Aradia: Gospel of the Witches (originally published 1899), one of Wicca's major sources.

"Diana greatly loved her brother Lucifer, the god of the Sun and of the Moon, the god of Light, who was so proud of his beauty, and who for his pride was driven from Paradise."

Now an wiccan may say this "lucifer" is not the one of the bible, yet this statement that Lucifer was "driven from Paradise" for his "pride" is clearly a reference of the Bible's (ISAIAH 14:12) and (Ezekiel 28:15-17).

ISA 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
EZE 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
EZE 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground.

From the book "Lectures On Alexandrian Wicca Witchcraft"

"It is virtually impossible to understand the witch-cult without first comprehending the position of the deities of the wicca. The god, whose name is a closely-guarded secret, but who was called in general the "horned one," was known to his Christian contemporaries as the "devil." which was called by them satan (more correctly shaitan), lucifer (more correctly lucifuge--"the light-bringer"), beelzebub and other names appropriate to the devil of the Scriptures, with whom they identify him."

Now this says something compelety different than Wicca is not Satan, it is a statement that the Church believed Wicca to be Satan. So, who we believe to be Satan is Wicca.
"The general accepted symbol of the left-handed path is the inverted triangle, called the triangle of darkness, symbolic of the Christian darkness, and it is passed on to this day among the initiates that it was a certainty in the old days that the people of the Right-Hand path feared this dark knowledge."
"When the brotherhood of light and darkness realized that the whole world was to be engulfed in a world castrophe---that of the great flood---they consulted in unity to discuss the preservation of the mysteries. After many disagreements,the Council of Light and Darkness combined their symbology. As a result, the two triangles were interlaced to form a set pattern which has been handed down to the present day as the six-pointed star."

Noahs flood?

"Aradia, in her quest of knowledge, witched to pass by the gates of the lord of death. After having traveled many miles, she found at last the entrance to the Netherlands and the guardians that were set upon the seven gates, removed her jewels and garments, saying: "nought may ye bring with ye into this land." Naked and bound she was brought before the lord of shadows, who was lucifer, his light shrouded in darkness. He recognized her and desired her for his queen would have laid down his might and dominion for her, yet she would not have him. She, the most beautiful of all created things saw only ugliness in his dark face. Thus it was that she was taken and made to kneel to death's scourge. This scene may be seen depicted in the paintings of the villa of the mysteries of Pompeii. The pain of this chastisement opened her eyes to the truth and she knew the hidden wisdom. She perceived the veil that covered the radiance of lucifer, and seeing him to be that which she sought, they made love and were one."

"Diana was the first created before all creation. In her were all things, out of her first darkness she divided herself into darkness and light. Lucifer, her brother and son, was the light; when Diana saw that light was beautify, the light was her other self, her brother lucifer, she yearned for it with exceeding great desire, wishing to receive the light again into her darkness, to swallow it up in rapture, in delight. She trembled with desire. This desire was the dawn, but lucifer the light fled from her and would not yield to her wishes."

"In ancient times, our lord of the horned one was --as he is-- the consoler, the comforter. But men know him as the dread lord of the shadows--lonely, stern, and just. But our lady, who had never loved lucifer, the horned one, upon the earth and beneath the earth, would solve all mysteries, even the mystery of death."
I dont know what else to say, the wiccan writers have said all that needs to be said.... Wicca is who Christians believe to be the Devil, Satan, Lucifer, the monster of old.[/quote]

News flash, Wicca was made up by some insane guy in the last century or so, who constructed a religion out of other people's myths. Though, they are definately a way of bringing satan into the world (like we need more of that :rolleyes: ... pray for them :sign: )

[quote name='Raphael' post='1335781' date='Jul 20 2007, 04:13 PM']If Circe is all that dangerous, should I not read the Odyssey?

Let me tell you something about Wicca: it's a load of carp taken from a very shallow understanding of mythology. Just because someone else employs the same mythology for an entirely different purpose doesn't mean that person is copying off Wicca...it means that person is copying off mythology.

As far as using the names of alchemists...why not? They are mysterious historical figures, perfect for a fictional mystery book series. Unless you think there's a danger of readers delving into alchemy (I doubt that, since science has disproven it), there's not much harm. As for the coincidence about the 666 years old thing...I'm quite certain that the relative age of a person can't possibly mean that writing a book about them at a certain time makes the book evil.

Sorry. There are some good arguments against HP, but these aren't them. The arguments I've seen are simple, and I've already stated them: HP can be dangerous reading for those who would be lead by them into an unsafe curiosity about the occult. For those who can see through the imaginary themes and literary devices to get to the plot, I don't think there's a grave danger. I think Fr. Amorth is correct, but I also think he's being very frequently misunderstood and misrepresented and taken out of context...I don't know for certain what his intended context is, of course, but I don't see any reason to take all his statements the way they have commonly been taken.

That said, anyone, child, teen, or adult, who cannot see through the literary devices in HP should not read the books. People like to ask me, "well, if they shouldn't, then why should you?" Of course, why should anyone read a Stephen King novel, if we wouldn't recommend it to kids? Just because one audience isn't fit to read a genre or book doesn't mean the book is unsuitable for all audiences.

God bless,

Micah[/quote]

I agree with you here, somewhat.

My two cents about the whole deal is, I wanna get this book over with. I'll read the last one. Just send an exorcist my way if I start spewing out anti-Catholic jargon. I've had different opinions about the book, but I don't think I'm going to leave the end hanging. I'll put down the book though, if it starts getting into major magical nonsense... meaning there is a huge spell written in the middle of it... :idontknow:

EDIT: We get both the "British" and "American" Titles for the first book. I personally read the Philosopher's Stone version. Apparently they made it Sorcerer's Stone in order to dumb it down for Americans... either that, Philosopher doesn't sound as interesting for some reason? :idontknow:

Edited by Sacred Music Man
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[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1335826' date='Jul 20 2007, 05:22 PM']The last line seems to imply a bit of Hexakosioihexekontahexaphobia, no?[/quote]

No not on my part, the number 666, has an important place in witchcraft, it is very odd that Rowling would employ the name of a real witch/wizard/sorcerer who at that time was 666 yrs old. A coincidence? Perhaps. But, I dont think it a probable coincidence.

If it is ok to use real magick or real wizard and witches, could Harry and his friends use a wedgy board in one of the books? Would that be ok to?

Edited by KnightofChrist
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[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1335847' date='Jul 20 2007, 08:16 PM']No not on my part, the number 666, has an important place in witchcraft, it is very odd that Rowling would employ the name of a real witch/wizard/sorcerer who at that time was 666 yrs old. A coincidence? Perhaps. But, I dont think it a probable coincidence.

If it is ok to use real magick or real wizard and witches, could Harry and his friends use a wedgy board in one of the books? Would that be ok to?[/quote]

If it's a coincidence, then that's even more disturbing. That implies maybe unknown forces having a bit to do with it. I'd rather have Rowling done it on purpose than it to be coincidence.

M. Night Shyamalan"s "Signs" comes into mind when I think of coincidences.

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I think the article kinda says it all with "By reading Harry Potter [b]a young child[/b] will be drawn into magic and from there it is a simple step to Satanism and the Devil," he said.

If you can clearly tell the difference between fantasy/make-believe and reality, I don't see how this book is any harm. As for young children, a parent should read it with them to clearly show the distinctions, explain questions, ect...

Edited by CatholicCid
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