Purgatory: Who Believes It Anyway?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1657137' date='Sep 16 2008, 09:38 PM']God gives His people promises that if they remain with Him, in the Church until the end of the lives in the state of grace, the will be saved, while this sits on the mercy of God it is very different than those outside the Church who have no such promises, who also lack the graces.

It is possible but we have no way in knowing.[/quote]
Despite our different emphases, I think we're arguing on the same side.

[eagle_eye222001]

Purgatory is backed up by the Bible.

2 Samuel 12:13-18

[i]3 David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against Yahweh.' Nathan then said to David, 'Yahweh, for his part, forgives your sin; you are not to die. 14 But, since you have outraged Yahweh by doing this, the child born to you will die.' 15 And Nathan went home. Yahweh struck the child which Uriah's wife had borne to David and it fell gravely ill. 16 David pleaded with Yahweh for the child; he kept a strict fast and went home and spent the night lying on the ground, covered with sacking. 17 The officials of his household stood round him, intending to get him off the ground, but he refused, nor would he take food with them. 18 On the seventh day the child died. David's retinue were afraid to tell him that the child was dead. 'Even when the child was alive', they thought, 'we reasoned with him and he would not listen to us. How can we tell him that the child is dead? He will do [/i]

[b]Principle 1: Punishment for sin even after forgiveness[/b]

Revelation 21:27

[i]Nothing unclean may come into it: no one who does what is loathsome or false, but only those who are listed in the Lamb's book of life.[/i]

Talking about how nothing unclean can come into heaven.

[b]Principle 2: Nothing with stain of sin enters heaven[/b]

Matthew 5:48

[i]48 Do not even the gentiles do as much? You must therefore be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.' [/i]

Must be perfect to enter into heaven. Fair enough.

Hebrews 12:22-23

[i]22 But what you have come to is Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem where the millions of angels have gathered for the festival, 23 with the whole Church of first-born sons, enrolled as citizens of heaven. You have come to God himself, the supreme Judge, and to the spirits of the upright who have been made perfect; [/i]

Note the "spirits of the upright who have been made perfect." Where is this place? Certainly not heaven and certainly not hell.

[b]Principle 3: There is a way/process for spirits of just men are made perfect[/b]

1 Corinthians 3:13-15

[i]13 but each person's handiwork will be shown for what it is. The Day which dawns in fire will make it clear and the fire itself will test the quality of each person's work. 14 The one whose work stands up to it will be given his wages; 15 the one whose work is burnt down will suffer the loss of it, though he himself will be saved; he will be saved as someone might expect to be saved from a fire. [/i]

Again where is this place? So we are not 'just saved' and there is this fire thing but it is not hell as we can be saved. Not hell. Not heaven. Where?

[b]Principle 4: There is a place other than heaven or hell[/b]

Matthew 12:32

[i]32 And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next. [/i]

Implies there is forgiveness in the age to come. Again, not heaven or hell.

Matthew 18:32-35

[i]32 Then the master sent for the man and said to him, "You wicked servant, I canceled all that debt of yours when you appealed to me. 33 Were you not bound, then, to have pity on your fellow-servant just as I had pity on you?" 34 And in his anger the master handed him over to the torturers till he should pay all his debt. 35 And that is how my heavenly Father will deal with you unless you each forgive your brother from your heart.' [/i]

Where can you go for this? Heaven? Hell? NO. You can still be saved but not until you pay your debt.


2 Maccabees 12:43-45

[i]43 after this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmas, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an action altogether fine and noble, prompted by his belief in the resurrection.
44 For had he not expected the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead,
45 whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who make a pious end, the thought was holy and devout. Hence, he had this expiatory sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin. [/i]

Key phrase here is "might be released from their sin."

At the time of the Maccabees the leaders of the people of God had no hesitation in asserting the efficacy of prayers offered for the dead, in order that those who had departed this life might find pardon for their sins and the hope of eternal resurrection.

________________________________________
__

Bottom line. There is a strong case with these passages to be made of a Purgatory place. If there is not a purgatory place...how do you explain these passages? I am interested in hearing rebuttals of this arguement I am making.

[Paddington]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1658138' date='Sep 18 2008, 06:35 AM']__

Bottom line. There is a strong case with these passages to be made of a Purgatory place. If there is not a purgatory place...how do you explain these passages? I am interested in hearing rebuttals of this arguement I am making.[/quote]

I'll try. I don't know if they can be called rebuttals. I'm just "having fun." Not really. But, these are some possible objections you might hear. I don't stand by my work.

1. Samuel 2: Punishments in heaven can be less of a good thing. Also, remind yourself of how Confession can remove punishments partiall or in full, and that you don't know why it can be either.
2. Revelation 21: doesn't mention punishment or purgation. Protestants and Orthodox believe in being perfected by death and possibly by the judgement too.
3. Matthew 5: Doesn't mention the afterlife. "Perfect" can also mean mature.
4. Hebrews: It's already covered in the above.
5. 1 Cor: They lose their wages. It doesn't say "perfected (in the literal sense) thru anguish."
6. Matthew 12: The age to come or the world to come? Pentecost brought a new age. I guess it is also when Christ came on clouds in glory before the Apostles left Jerusalem. After Pentecost is called the "end times" so there is a big shift in a matter of days. If Joe sins in a way that is not Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, then maybe he would be forgiven during life or maybe not, but he would be forgiven in Heaven. BATHS is a sin that won't get either. Christ is pointing that out.
7. Matthew 18: The only problem I see with it is that those who don't forgive their brother from their heart might not get to go to Purgatory anyways. And there are plenty of beatings in life.
8. 2 Macc 12: There doesn't seem to be as muchroom by letting other parts of Protestant or Orthodox theology cover it. (Although Protestants don't believe in this book anyways.) Anglicans and Orthodox pray for the dead, but don't believe in Purgatory tho, so how come? Heaven can be better for a person who is there I guess. Hell can too of course, even tho it doesn't sound like that would ever happen. People can pray to change the past too. You can't stop them. I don't know if it is sound, but people can and maybe God does something with it. Actually....whoa I just remember seeing Mother Angelica do that on EWTN and she mentioned people who had passed in car accidents, etc. to have a last chance at accepting Christ.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1658215' date='Sep 18 2008, 11:35 AM']I'll try. I don't know if they can be called rebuttals. I'm just "having fun." Not really. But, these are some possible objections you might hear. I don't stand by my work.[/quote]


Your "having fun" but "Not really." However you "don't stand for your work?" I'm confused.
If you don't stand by your work, does that mean I should not even bother? Or if I don't respond, you and others will claim that Purgatory has been Purged? If I respond and debunk it, you already have your "I don't stand by my work" and just "having fun." Seems like you are trying to challenge me in a way that you can claim "no result" no matter the result, however, if I ignore or misstep, I will be shot at with heavy anti-aircraft.

[img]http://www.aps.edu/aps/DoubleEagle/art/eagle.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p119/Ackistan/aim-120a-1.jpg[/img]


[quote]1. Samuel 2: Punishments in heaven can be less of a good thing. Also, remind yourself of how Confession can remove punishments partiall or in full, and that you don't know why it can be either.[/quote]

"Punishments in heaven can be less of a good thing?" How so? Honestly I am not exactly sure what you are arguing here. I'll move on to the others for the moment.

[quote]2. Revelation 21: doesn't mention punishment or purgation. Protestants and Orthodox believe in being perfected by death and possibly by the judgement too.[/quote]

Just because it does not mention punishment or "purgation" does not mean that it exists though. This passage is meant to point out that we do not enter heaven unless we are perfect. Why do the Protestants and Orthodox believe in being perfected by death?

[quote]3. Matthew 5: Doesn't mention the afterlife. "Perfect" can also mean mature.[/quote]

No it does not mention the afterlife however Jesus says we should be perfect. Is this for bonus points or is it necessary to complete the goal of entering heaven? I don't think Jesus is offering a suggestion as much as he is stating a fact.

Matthew 5:48

[i]48 Do not even the gentiles do as much? You must therefore be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.' [/i]

Are we still going with 'mature' here? Where did you get "mature?"

[quote]4. Hebrews: It's already covered in the above.[/quote]

What is your point here? You mean...

Hebrews 12:22-23

[i]22 But what you have come to is Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem where the millions of angels have gathered for the festival, 23 with the whole Church of first-born sons, enrolled as citizens of heaven. You have come to God himself, the supreme Judge, and to the spirits of the upright who have been made perfect; [/i]

that the "spirits of the upright who have been made [u]mature[/u]?"

Again why should I change the word in the Bible from [u]perfect [/u]to [u]mature[/u]?



[quote]5. 1 Cor: They lose their wages. It doesn't say "perfected (in the literal sense) thru anguish."[/quote]

Are you literally interpreting? Have you read this passage in context?


6. Matthew 12: The age to come or the world to come? Pentecost brought a new age. I guess it is also when Christ came on clouds in glory before the Apostles left Jerusalem. After Pentecost is called the "end times" so there is a big shift in a matter of days. If Joe sins in a way that is not Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, then maybe he would be forgiven during life or maybe not, [u]but he would be forgiven in Heaven[/u]. BATHS is a sin that won't get either. Christ is pointing that out.

No, it does not say he will be forgiven in heaven. Remember the passage earlier. Revelation 21:27 about needing to be perfect to make it in there. Also...

Matthew 25:31-33

[i]31 'When the Son of man comes in his glory, escorted by all the angels, then he will take his seat on his throne of glory.
32 All nations will be assembled before him and he will separate people one from another as the shepherd separates sheep from goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left.[/i]

So we are not getting our sins forgiven in heaven...apparently we don't have a chance to as we are judged before we get there.


7. Matthew 18: The only problem I see with it is that those who don't forgive their brother from their heart might not get to go to Purgatory anyways. And there are plenty of beatings in life.

No, those who do not forgive their brother will not make it to heaven for the moment. Read...

Matthew 18:23-35

[i]23 '[u]And so the kingdom of Heaven may be compared to[/u] a king who decided to settle his accounts with his servants.
24 When the reckoning began, they brought him a man who owed ten thousand talents;
25 he had no means of paying, so his master gave orders that he should be sold, together with his wife and children and all his possessions, to meet the debt.
26 At this, the servant threw himself down at his master's feet, with the words, "Be patient with me and I will pay the whole sum."
27 And the servant's master felt so sorry for him that he let him go and cancelled the debt.
28 Now as this servant went out, he happened to meet a fellow-servant who owed him one hundred denarii; and he seized him by the throat and began to throttle him, saying, "Pay what you owe me."
29 His fellow-servant fell at his feet and appealed to him, saying, "Be patient with me and I will pay you."
30 But the other would not agree; on the contrary, he had him thrown into prison till he should pay the debt.
31 His fellow-servants were deeply distressed when they saw what had happened, and they went to their master and reported the whole affair to him.
32 Then the master sent for the man and said to him, "You wicked servant, I cancelled all that debt of yours when you appealed to me.
33 Were you not bound, then, to have pity on your fellow-servant just as I had pity on you?"
34 And in his anger the master handed him over to the torturers till he should pay all his debt.
[u]35 And that is how my heavenly Father will deal with you unless you each forgive your brother from your heart.'[/u]
[/i]

So God will not let you sit in heaven with sin. You need to pay your debt first. Where do you pay your debt at? Purgatory? We Roman Catholics believe so.

[quote]8. 2 Macc 12: There doesn't seem to be as muchroom by letting other parts of Protestant or Orthodox theology cover it. (Although Protestants don't believe in this book anyways.) Anglicans and Orthodox pray for the dead, but don't believe in Purgatory tho, so how come? Heaven can be better for a person who is there I guess. Hell can too of course, even tho it doesn't sound like that would ever happen. People can pray to change the past too. You can't stop them. I don't know if it is sound, but people can and maybe God does something with it. Actually....whoa I just remember seeing Mother Angelica do that on EWTN and she mentioned people who had passed in car accidents, etc. to have a last chance at accepting Christ.[/quote]

Are we changing the subject to praying? What is your main point here on dealing with Purgatory? I was not even considering the Protestants or Orthodox side. I am arguing on behalf of the Roman Catholic faith.

[Darky]

[quote]1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this [b]final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[/b]604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606[/quote]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM[/url]

[color="blue"]Purgatory is the "final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned"
Purgatory can be seen as the 'gateway' to heaven. It is painful for one to stand before God exposed whilst in sin. An Old Testament prophet (do not remember whom) hid behind a pillar and could not face God so how can we immediately face God whilst drenched in sin? Purgatory is a [i]process[/i] not a place nor a seperate dimention. Heading towards the path to Heaven which begins on our pilgrim faith on Earth involves this process of realising our sins, experiencing regret, discipline and the flames of purification.
The flames of Hell is mostly the pain of separation, the absence of love itself, God (or in a way he is present in hell by his absence). Hell is a place where forgiveness can no longer be obtained, such a dreadful thing!
In the process of purgatory, sins are forgiven and one is not separated from God (even in 'dark night of the soul') so there are some differences in that aspect.

This is my understanding of purgatory in my studies, however I continue to study and hope to better understand these things.

Darky [/color]

[Paddington]

EagleEye,

I don't have much time unfortunately, but to clarify the "perfect means mature" thing is something I have heard about Matt 5 and not Hebrews 12. From a Protestant pastor. And when I said "see above" I didn't mean "directly above and only there" as it probably looked. I meant that Protestants and Orthodox might have any of the above in their thoughts on the topic.

As far as 2 Macc......living person does something for a dead person. Prayer or otherwise.

But, I do have to go. Have a nice day.

Paddington

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Darky' post='1658951' date='Sep 19 2008, 07:52 AM'][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM"]http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM[/url]

[color="blue"]Purgatory is the "final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned"
Purgatory can be seen as the 'gateway' to heaven. It is painful for one to stand before God exposed whilst in sin. An Old Testament prophet (do not remember whom) hid behind a pillar and could not face God so how can we immediately face God whilst drenched in sin? Purgatory is a [i]process[/i] not a place nor a seperate dimention. Heading towards the path to Heaven which begins on our pilgrim faith on Earth involves this process of realising our sins, experiencing regret, discipline and the flames of purification.
The flames of Hell is mostly the pain of separation, the absence of love itself, God (or in a way he is present in hell by his absence). Hell is a place where forgiveness can no longer be obtained, such a dreadful thing!
In the process of purgatory, sins are forgiven and one is not separated from God (even in 'dark night of the soul') so there are some differences in that aspect.

This is my understanding of purgatory in my studies, however I continue to study and hope to better understand these things.

Darky [/color][/quote]

Thanks for the reference to the CCC and thanks for joining phatmass.

[jbriere]

[quote name='mortify' post='1537975' date='May 22 2008, 07:58 PM']What do you think?[/quote]
I don't think hell is purgatory . But nice poll !

[reyb]

[indent]
Is Purgatory an Apostolic teaching or is it a reinvention of an ancient tradition by Catholic’s early fathers - who are hoping to justify the unexplainable righteousness of God in bringing ‘good-unholy’ soul to hell? In short, is purgatory a God’s doctrine or is it a man’s insight in justifying the righteousness of God?’
-------------------

[indent]Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, Part One, The Profession of Faith, Section Two, Chapter III The Final Purification or Purgatory.[/indent]
[indent][color="#0000FF"]1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611 [/color]
see [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1031"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1031[/url]
---------------------------------------------[/indent]
It is stated in the above paragraph (1030) ‘[color="#0000FF"]All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.[/color]’

What does ‘[color="#0000FF"]All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified[/color]...’ really mean?

Why then it is written in 1 John 3:7-10

[indent][color="#FF0000"]7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. [b]The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning , because he has been born of God[/b]. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother[/color][/indent].
NIV

Can anyone explain this to us?[/indent]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1709416' date='Nov 24 2008, 09:15 AM']What does ‘[color="#0000FF"]All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified[/color]...’ really mean?

Why then it is written in 1 John 3:7-10

[indent][color="#FF0000"]7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. [b]The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning , because he has been born of God[/b]. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother[/color][/indent].
NIV

Can anyone explain this to us?[/indent][/quote]

The obvious observation from 1 John is that we still commit sins even if we are born again. By becoming sons of God through Christ, we cease to be sons of evil through Adam. But 1 John isn't saying we will never commit sinful acts. For Christians, there is a constant struggle between obedience to the Spirit versus the flesh. Hence, the need for Reconciliation and purification of our attachment to the flesh by God's grace.

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1709425' date='Nov 24 2008, 09:59 AM']The obvious observation from 1 John is that we still commit sins even if we are born again. By becoming sons of God through Christ, we cease to be sons of evil through Adam. But 1 John isn't saying we will never commit sinful acts. For Christians, there is a constant struggle between obedience to the Spirit versus the flesh. Hence, the need for Reconciliation and purification of our attachment to the flesh by God's grace.[/quote]

[indent]While the writer of 1 John says as if he is warning us that if our anointing is real and not counterfeit, ‘[color="#FF0000"] No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God[/color]. Now, you are telling me a totally different view because you said ‘we still commit sins even if we are born again’.

He even said in previous paragraph that (1 John 3:4-6)

[color="#FF0000"]Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. [/color]

Again, if our anointing is real and not counterfeit how can we reconcile our subject discussion in John 10:27-30?

[color="#FF0000"]27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." [/color] [/indent]

[indent]Are we greater than God that we can go against his will?[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Pontifex' post='1540007' date='May 24 2008, 11:55 AM'][b[color="#0000FF"]]Purgatory is the place between the judgement seat of Christ and the beatific vision[/color][/b]. I say this because some of our Protestant brothers and sisters seem to believe that we have a second chance theology. This is absolutely not true and never has been. We believe that the will is fixed after death and so we share the protestant view of two directions when you die. (Heaven & Hell)

[color="#0000FF"]For the faithful it is a time of purification before complete union with God in all of his glory.[/color] Catholic theology, which has a very healthy view of the human person, sees humanity as fundamentally good but tainted by sin. We are not snow covered dung heaps as Luther would state. We are not evil creatures that are covered over by Jesus and get a free pass straight into Heaven because the Father sees that like being camoflauged. The redemption of Jesus is incarnational. It is a redemption that starts from within and purifies us throughout our faith life, until we are unified completely with the Trinue God. (Notice that this does nothing to deemphasize salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.)s

Purgation has begun here on this earth. All the sufferings that we endure and all the sacrifices that we make now, all the graces that receive are part of that process. The burning of purgatory comes from the longing that we have to be in union with God. It is NOT the flames of hell.

Blessings,

Fr. Pontifex[/quote]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1709425' date='Nov 24 2008, 09:59 AM']The obvious observation from 1 John is that we still commit sins even if we are born again. By becoming sons of God through Christ, we cease to be sons of evil through Adam. But 1 John isn't saying we will never commit sinful acts. [color="#0000FF"]For Christians, there is a constant struggle between obedience to the Spirit versus the flesh[/color]. Hence, the need for Reconciliation and purification of our attachment to the flesh by God's grace.[/quote]

[indent]If our anointing is real and not counterfeit, why then there must be ‘[color="#0000FF"]a constant struggle between obedience to the Spirit versus the flesh’[/color]. ? For it is written in 1 John 5:1-5
[color="#FF0000"]
-------------------------
5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. [b]And his commands are not burdensome , 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world[/b]. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. [/color]NIV
--------------------
Again, how can we reconcile that ‘[color="#FF0000"]his command are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world’[/color] and your statement ‘[color="#0000FF"]For Christians, there is a constant struggle between obedience to the Spirit versus the flesh’?[/color]

May I remind you what the writer of 1 John said in the later part of his letter, to wit;

1 John 5:18-21
-----------------
[color="#FF0000"]18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; [b]the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.[/b] 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. [/color]

[color="#FF0000"]21 Dear children, keep yourselves from idols. [/color]
---------------------
Now, if our anointing is real and not counterfeit, why then do we need to consider a place or temporal punishment or whatever as characterized by your purgatory to ‘stop-over’ if ‘[color="#FF0000"]the one who was born of God keeps his safe, and the evil one cannot harm him’ [/color]is true? [/indent]

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='reyb' post='1709527' date='Nov 24 2008, 11:51 AM'][indent]While the writer of 1 John says as if he is warning us that if our anointing is real and not counterfeit, ‘[color="#FF0000"] No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God[/color]. Now, you are telling me a totally different view because you said ‘we still commit sins even if we are born again’.

He even said in previous paragraph that (1 John 3:4-6)

[color="#FF0000"]Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. [/color][/quote]

So from 1 John 3:4-6, we see that when we live in Christ, we do not sin. However, we can still choose to sin, and when we sin, we are not living in Christ. Do you agree with this? The passage here does not say that we cannot sin period. It says that in him there is no sin and when we live in him, we do not sin. However, we can leave Christ and that is where sin is.

[quote]Again, if our anointing is real and not counterfeit how can we reconcile our subject discussion in John 10:27-30?

[color="#FF0000"]27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." [/color] [/indent]

[indent]Are we greater than God that we can go against his will?[/indent][/quote]

The passage in John 10:27-30 basically is saying that the followers of Christ shall have eternal life and shall not die and that they shall not be snatched. However, when we decide to not follow Christ (sinning), we separate ourselves from God and then we are not a follower with the package deal of eternal life.

I would say we can go against God's will. God gives us a choice. Believe in Christ or not.

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[quote name='reyb' post='1710262' date='Nov 24 2008, 11:53 PM'][indent]If our anointing is real and not counterfeit, why then there must be ‘[color="#0000FF"]a constant struggle between obedience to the Spirit versus the flesh’[/color]. ? For it is written in 1 John 5:1-5
[color="#FF0000"]
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5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. [b]And his commands are not burdensome , 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world[/b]. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. [/color]NIV
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Again, how can we reconcile that ‘[color="#FF0000"]his command are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world’[/color] and your statement ‘[color="#0000FF"]For Christians, there is a constant struggle between obedience to the Spirit versus the flesh’?[/color][/quote]

So it seems you are taking 1 John 5:3 as that God's commandments are not burdensome period. Is this idea correct? What about the early Christians who were told to renounce their faith or be sent to the lions? Was this burdensome? What definition of burdensome are we using?

Let's look at 1 John 5:3 again.

[i]3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome [/i]

Let's look at the passage in context and look before the passage to find something in context to help us.

1 John 4:18

[i]18 In love there is no room for fear, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear implies punishment and no one who is afraid has come to perfection in love.[/i]

So love for God is to obey his commandments which are not burdensome. Why are they not burdensome? Well, if we have perfect love (love for God), then we have no fear, and if we have no fear then would not God's commandments not be burdensome?


[quote]May I remind you what the writer of 1 John said in the later part of his letter, to wit;

1 John 5:18-21
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[color="#FF0000"]18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; [b]the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.[/b] 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. [/color]

[color="#FF0000"]21 Dear children, keep yourselves from idols. [/color]
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Now, if our anointing is real and not counterfeit, why then do we need to consider a place or temporal punishment or whatever as characterized by your purgatory to ‘stop-over’ if ‘[color="#FF0000"]the one who was born of God keeps his safe, and the evil one cannot harm him’ [/color]is true? [/indent][/quote]

Our anointing is real, however, when we turn away from the Lord, we distance ourselves from the Lord and we need time to fix those blemishes. We choose to turn away from the Lord. Basically, a long as we follow God, Satan cannot steal us from God. He can steal us if we allow him to.



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Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/trans-siberian+orchestra/track/christmas+eve+(sarajevo+12+24)"]Trans-Siberian Orchestra - Christmas Eve (Sarajevo 12/24)[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='reyb' post='1709416' date='Nov 24 2008, 08:15 AM'][indent]
Is Purgatory an Apostolic teaching or is it a reinvention of an ancient tradition by Catholic’s early fathers - who are hoping to justify the unexplainable righteousness of God in bringing ‘good-unholy’ soul to hell? In short, is purgatory a God’s doctrine or is it a man’s insight in justifying the righteousness of God?’[/quote]

So you seem to be asking for evidence for this supposed "invention," correct?


Look on page 7 of this debate thread and post #137.

Also Catholic Answers has some stuff on it that you should find interesting. They provide explanations of the Catholic position along with Bible passages.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp[/url]

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp[/url]

If you have any questions after looking at these arguments for Purgatory, feel free to post them, and I or someone else will be by to answer.

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Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/mahalia+jackson/track/o+holy+night"]Mahalia Jackson - O Holy Night[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

Edited November 25, 2008 by eagle_eye222001

[reyb]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1658138' date='Sep 18 2008, 04:05 AM']Purgatory is backed up by the Bible.

2 Samuel 12:13-18

[b]Principle 1: Punishment for sin even after forgiveness[/b]
[b]Principle 2: Nothing with stain of sin enters heaven[/b]
[b]Principle 3: There is a way/process for spirits of just men are made perfect[/b]
[b]Principle 4: There is a place other than heaven or hell[/b]
________________________________________

Bottom line. There is a strong case with these passages to be made of a Purgatory place. If there is not a purgatory place...how do you explain these passages? I am interested in hearing rebuttals of this arguement I am making.[/quote]
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[indent]Okay let us discuss your suppose to be strong case...
First, are the above priniciples then official stand of the Roman Catholic Church regarding our sujbect discussion? (I just want to know)[/indent]

Edited November 25, 2008 by reyb