The Immaculate Conception?

[Selah]

Can you guys help me? I am currently debating a calvinist concerning this, and he hit me with a bunch of quotes...from church fathers and such...that seem to deny her Immaculate Conception!

Clement of Alexandrea- "The Word, Jesus Christ was alone born without sin."

Augustine of Hippo- "He, Christ alone, being made a man but remaining God, never had any sin, nor did he take on flesh of sin, though he took flesh of the sin of his mother."

St. Amobrose- "Of all that are born of women, the holy Lord Jesus was the only one who experienced not the contagion of earthly corruption."

St. Bernard- "For this reason, our astonishment is not small in seeing that some of your are believed to be able to introduce a new feast that is unknown to the rite of the Church, that cannot be approved by reason, that it is condemned by the ancient traditions [scriptures], the Feast of the Immaculate Conception."

St. Thomas Aquinas- "What honor shoud we believe in attributing to Mary that honor may be had for her conception, which was anterior to her birth? Because without this conception neither her birth should be honored. Then would you say if others, according to your own reasoning, were to mantain that it is necessary to hold feasts in honor of her parents, this is logical. Then it would be necessary to honer her grandparents, and her great-grandparents; and there would be no end at all. There would be feasts without number on the earth and it would be converted into a paradise."

Peter Lombard- "But this is asked, on what account and whence is it that Mary was conceived without original sin? We say this was impossible."

Melchior Cannas- "The dogma that holds the blessed Virgin was free from the original sin was nowhere delivered in Holy Scripture!"

St. Antoninus- "If the Scriptures are duly considered, and the sayings of the doctors ancient and modern who have been devoted to the glorious Virgin- it is plain from their word she was conceived in sin."

Leo I- "The Lord Jesus Christ alone among the sons of men was born without sin."

Pope Gallatus- "It belongs to the immaculate Lamb to have no sin."

Gragory I- "Christ alone was truly born holy."

Innocent III- "Eve was produced without sin, but she brought forth in sin. Mary was brought forth in sin, but she brought forth without sin."

What am I to make of this? Are there any quotes by Church fathers that speak of her Immaculate Conception?

Thanks!

[StColette]

[b]Clement of Alexandrea- "The Word, Jesus Christ was alone born without sin."[/b]

Can not find this quote in any source. I did find: Clement of Alexandria (190 AD) "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning, for he was in God, and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone. is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1).


[b]Augustine of Hippo- "He, Christ alone, being made a man but remaining God, never had any sin, nor did he take on flesh of sin, though he took flesh of the sin of his mother."[/b]

St. Augustine’s idea of original sin was very complex, which is a good explanation for why he speaks of Mary this way.

[b]St. Thomas Aquinas- "What honor should we believe in attributing to Mary that honor may be had for her conception, which was anterior to her birth? Because without this conception neither her birth should be honored. Then would you say if others, according to your own reasoning, were to maintain that it is necessary to hold feasts in honor of her parents, this is logical. Then it would be necessary to honer her grandparents, and her great-grandparents; and there would be no end at all. There would be feasts without number on the earth and it would be converted into a paradise."[/b]

This seems like a quote taken from the Summa Theologica written by St. Thomas Aquinas. When taken out of context it can be quite difficult to understand his response. I recommend reading this section [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4027.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4027.htm[/url] of the Summa.

[b]
Peter Lombard- "But this is asked, on what account and whence is it that Mary was conceived without original sin? We say this was impossible."[/b]

Can’t find any source for this one to place it into context.


[b]Melchior Cannas- "The dogma that holds the blessed Virgin was free from the original sin was nowhere delivered in Holy Scripture!"[/b]

Apparently Melchior Cannas is a professor of Canon Law. I’ve never heard of him and can only find one source where he is quoted as saying this and it does not give it in context.

[b]St. Antoninus- "If the Scriptures are duly considered, and the sayings of the doctors ancient and modern who have been devoted to the glorious Virgin- it is plain from their word she was conceived in sin."[/b]

Again, I can’t find a source for this person nor the quote in context or at all.


[b]Leo I- "The Lord Jesus Christ alone among the sons of men was born without sin." (sermon 24 in Nativ. Dom.). [/b]

Pope Leo I wrote, “Alone therefore among the sons of men the Lord Jesus was born innocent, because alone conceived without pollution of carnal concupiscence.”
Lol Since when is Mary a son of man? Completely twisting the words of Leo I.

[b]Pope Gallatus- "It belongs to the immaculate Lamb to have no sin.[/b]

Can’t find a source for this at all either.

[b]Gregory I- "Christ alone was truly born holy."[/b]

Only source I can find for this one is very Anti-Catholic and does not give context to the quote.

[b]Innocent III- "Eve was produced without sin, but she brought forth in sin. Mary was brought forth in sin, but she brought forth without sin."[/b]

Can’t find the context or source for this quote either.

[b]What am I to make of this? Are there any quotes by Church fathers that speak of her Immaculate Conception?[/b]

Early Church Fathers disagreed on a number of things. We must understand that not all Church teachings were clearly given to us from the very beginning. Heck, the Divinity of Christ caused large problems between many Early Church Fathers. Original Sin is another topic which went back and forth between the Early Church Fathers when they were seeking understanding. We weren’t given all our dogmas and doctrines on a silver platter. Many of them took many many centuries to develop. The Church isn’t willy nilly about what she passes as dogma or doctrine, but is very calculated and careful.

As for Church Fathers for the Immaculate Conception, sorry if any of these are repeated:

Justin Martyr

[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, "Be it done unto me according to your word" (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus

Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, "Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word." Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

Origen

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Hippolytus

He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Ephraim the Syrian

You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan

Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).

Gregory Nazianzen

He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor (Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]).

Augustine

We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Theodotus of Ancrya

A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns (Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446]).

Proclus of Constantinople

As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]).

Jacob of Sarug

[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary[ante A.D. 521].

Romanos the Melodist

Then the tribes of Israel heard that Anna had conceived the immaculate one. So everyone took part in the rejoicing. Joachim gave a banquet, and great was the merriment in the garden. He invited the priests and Levites to prayer; then he called Mary into the center of the crowd, that she might be magnified (On the Birth of Mary 1 [d. ca A.D. 560]).

The Ascension of Isaiah

"[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’" (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).

The Odes of Solomon

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr

"[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus

"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith" (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

"The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten" (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

"And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight" (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210].

Pseudo-Melito

"If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: ‘Be it done according to your will’" (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2–17 [A.D. 300]).

Ephraim the Syrian

"You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?" (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan

"Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to" (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).

"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue. When did she pain her parents even by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy?" (ibid., 2:2:7).

"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin" (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).

Augustine

"Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both" (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).

"That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head" (Holy Virginity 6:6 [A.D. 401]).

...

"Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?" (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Timothy of Jerusalem

"Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption" (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).

John the Theologian

"[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’" (The Falling Asleep of Mary [A.D. 400]).

"And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise" (ibid.).

Gregory of Tours

"The course of this life having been completed by blessed Mary, when now she would be called from the world, all the apostles came together from their various regions to her house. And when they had heard that she was about to be taken from the world, they kept watch together with her. And behold, the Lord Jesus came with his angels, and, taking her soul, he gave it over to the angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, the apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb, and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; the holy body having been received, he commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise, where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary’s body] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end" (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 [A.D. 584]).

"But Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who is believed to be a virgin both before and after she bore him, has, as we said above, been translated into paradise, amid the singing of the angelic choirs, whither the Lord preceded her" (ibid., 1:8).
Also for more understanding about the Immaculate Conception:
Proof Of Mary's Immaculate Conception & Sinlessness in Luke 1:28

Luke 1:28 "Caire, kecaritomene"

By examining the meaning of the words which the angel Gabriel spoke to the Virgin Mary it is easy to see that she was immaculately conceived.

For Catholics it is no challenge in understanding that Mary was conceived without sin by simply reading the English version of the Bible verse Luke 1:28. Protestants, on the other hand, do not see beyond the literal meaning of the words "full of grace" or in certain Protestant Bibles "full of grace" is translated as " favored by God". While Catholics still have complete understanding of "favored by God" because the Church Fathers and Popes referred back to the Greek manuscript when declaring that Mary was conceived with out sin. Protestants do not carry on the same usage of the Greek manuscripts as Catholics do. They accept only the English form which merely states " full of grace" or "favored by God". So in order to clarify the true meaning behind the word kecaritomene which stands for "full of grace" in the English version of the Bible we must examine carefully the Greek.

The Angel Gabriel greets Mary as "Caire, kecharitomene!"

Caire means both "rejoice" and "hail"

Kecaritomene is used as a direct address, Gabriel is using the word kecaritomene as a replacement for Mary's name.

The root word of kecharitomene is charitoo which by definition means " to fill or endow with grace " After knowing the meaning of the root word it is clear that both the Catholic and Protestant Bibles use some form of the word "grace" or "favor".

The prefix to the word charitoo is [ke] which is a past participle which makes it clear that Mary's state of grace was preformed before Gabriel's proclamation.
The word kecharitomene not only should mean "full of grace" but rather the word used in the passive participle form means "made full of grace". The term used in the perfect participle as it is used in the Greek manuscript means a perfect and lasting sign of grace.

So let's check out the grammar of it. John Pacheco says the following:
"kecharitomene".. is a perfect passive participle. It means one endowed with favour or grace in a "permanent or perfect" fashion. According to Greek grammatical lexicons, the perfect stem of a Greek verb means the 'perpetuation of a permanent result or completed action'.


Thus since the words base meaning is a perfect and lasting sign of grace this means Mary would had to have been immaculately conceived. The word's meaning which renders " made full of grace " implies that even at Mary's conception she was "made full of grace." Since we all believe that life begins at conception there is no way of stating the use of this word in any other form. Mary "made" = "conceived" full of grace.

Kecaritomene- Noun and Verb

The word kecaritomene can be both used in the form of a verb or in the form of a noun. When the angel Gabriel greeted Mary, he was using kecaritomene in the form of a noun or pronoun, he was replacing her name, Mary, with this word. By calling Mary by this address the name is a direct reflection on the characteristic quality of Mary. Above all the angel Gabriel calls Mary, kecaritomene even before using her real name. Kecaritomene is therefore the name in which God sees Mary which is " full of grace ".

The word kecaritomene is used rarely in the Bible, in fact, I can only find one other time in which it is found and that is in the Letter to the Ephesians. The use of kecaritomene in the Letter to the Ephesians is used in the form of a verb, which means to "bestow grace".

The other time that kecharitomene is used, is in its root word form of "caritow" or "charitoo". However, the meaning is significantly different because the indicator [echaritosen] form is used.

Ephesians 1:6
eiv epainon dochv thv xaritov autou hv exaritwsen hmav en tw hgaphmenw,

Eph:1:6:

"To the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved"

1. We are - caritow charitoo khar-ee-to’-o - "given favor"

Used as a verb in Ephesians 1:6 meaning:

1. to make graceful
charming, lovely, agreeable
2. to peruse with grace, compass with favour to honour with blessings

The use of the word here is in no way the same use as in Luke 1:28. He "bestowed grace" or He "graced" shows a momentary action and doesn't signify a permanent state of grace which is evident in Luke 1:28. It also does not hold the same meaning since the use of the it in Luke is defined as being "made full of grace".
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=19366&hl=caire"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...66&hl=caire[/url]
There is a lot more about this topic on the thread above.

God Bless,
Jennie