"categories" Of Communities

[krissylou]

I'm trying to come up with neutral phrasings here and failing miserably. Everybody add extra charity and stir. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/saint.gif[/img]

So, for instance, I have heard people talking about considering the Port Tabacco Carmel but I haven't anyone talking about the Baltimore Carmel, which is geographically quite close and tends to be much more progressive (and does have new vocations entering).

For active orders, the use of an obvious habit is probably a good rule of thumb to identify the sort of thing I am trying (and failing!) to articulate.

One hears a lot that the most traditional orders are the ones that are attracting vocations while the others are dying out. Well, not entirely.

A friend of mine is preparing for her perpetual profession as a Benedictine Sister -- in her community some of the older sisters wear habits (for them this means a black suit -- much like I might wear to work -- plus a simple veil. The veil makes their status as nuns unmistakeable, but they're not going to be confused for Ingrid Bergman in Bells of St Mary's) but most do not. And her community has lots of young vocations -- well not lots like the Nashville Dominicans, but a steady stream. They can't be the ONLY not-habit-wearing community that has people entering.

So where do the people considering those communities chat and network and such? Are they all over on A Nun's Life?

Discuss.

[Thomist-in-Training]

I don't know where they hang out online cause I've never considered that kind of community. :shrug:

I have four categories myself for this issue: traditional[ist], conservative, liberal, and Regina Laudis. (That doesn't mean Regina Laudis is 'more liberal than liberal' on the scale it is just a [i]quartum quid[/i] that I still don't know where to put. )

Examples of the first are FSSP, ICK, SSPX, Carmelite nuns of Valparaiso and Elysburg. The second, Nashville Dominicans, Sisters of Life, and lots and lots of other things. The third, certain Sisters of St. Joseph, etc., although there are individual Sisters in liberal Orders who are still orthodox, I would say.

[krissylou]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='16 June 2010 - 05:32 PM' timestamp='1276723973' post='2130077']
I don't know where they hang out online cause I've never considered that kind of community. :shrug:

I have four categories myself for this issue: traditional[ist], conservative, liberal, and Regina Laudis. (That doesn't mean Regina Laudis is 'more liberal than liberal' on the scale [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/saint.gif[/img] it is just a [i]quartum quid[/i] that I still don't know where to put. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img] )

Examples of the first are FSSP, ICK, SSPX, Carmelite nuns of Valparaiso and Elysburg. The second, Nashville Dominicans, Sisters of Life, and lots and lots of other things. The third, certain Sisters of St. Joseph, etc., although there are individual Sisters in liberal Orders who are still orthodox, I would say.
[/quote]

For a period in between college and graduate school I was working in the research office at Great Big University's Medical School.

A WHOLE lot of Great Big Egos would come in and out. One day the chair of medical dietetics was dropping off a research proposal (she didn't often deal with our particular research office) and one of my colleagues was saying after she left "Oh what's different about her? She just doesn't seem like the others, she's so nice, you could just tell there's something different about her" etc etc etc. All after a less than five minute interaction!

Well I knew the answer, because I also knew her from church where she was addressed as Sister Rosita, not Dr. Such-and-so as she was addressed at work.

"She's a nun" I say. She has a few extra letters after her name. Ph.D., a few other professional certifications, and also RSM ...

(Religious Sister of Mercy, I think of Detroit. She wore a profession band, but no habit.)

I've always loved that story, and hope and pray that maybe someday I will have that effect on people too!

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='16 June 2010 - 03:32 PM' timestamp='1276723973' post='2130077']
I don't know where they hang out online cause I've never considered that kind of community. :shrug:

I have four categories myself for this issue: traditional[ist], conservative, liberal, and Regina Laudis. (That doesn't mean Regina Laudis is 'more liberal than liberal' on the scale it is just a [i]quartum quid[/i] that I still don't know where to put. )

Examples of the first are FSSP, ICK, SSPX, Carmelite nuns of Valparaiso and Elysburg. The second, Nashville Dominicans, Sisters of Life, and lots and lots of other things. The third, certain Sisters of St. Joseph, etc., although there are individual Sisters in liberal Orders who are still orthodox, I would say.
[/quote]

Regina Laudis is not a "questionable" community, and I think it's completely out of line to cast them as such.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='16 June 2010 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1276726547' post='2130108']
Regina Laudis is not a "questionable" community, and I think it's completely out of line to cast them as such.
[/quote]

I didn't take Thomist-In-Training's statement to mean that its a questionable community; she just didn't know how to classify them.

[zunshynn]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='16 June 2010 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1276727333' post='2130114']
I didn't take Thomist-In-Training's statement to mean that its a questionable community; she just didn't know how to classify them.
[/quote]

It's still unnecessarily singling out a community. If you [i]must[/i] "categorize" communities, and have one that you don't know how to classify, then, seriously, just don't mention them.

I'm sure none of us have tried, or are qualified, to categorize every community out there, so why mention only one out of all of the "unclassifiable" ones?

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='16 June 2010 - 07:33 PM' timestamp='1276727636' post='2130116']
It's still unnecessarily singling out a community. If you [i]must[/i] "categorize" communities, and have one that you don't know how to classify, then, seriously, just don't mention them.

I'm sure none of us have tried, or are qualified, to categorize every community out there, so why mention only one out of all of the "unclassifiable" ones?
[/quote]

Maybe because it is worth mentioning -- I did a quick search of them and they look to be an interesting community (one that I wouldn't consider only because if I reconsider religious life it would be to a semi-cloistered or an active community, and in all likelihood not Benedictine)

All I said before is that I didn't take the comment the way you took it ... and if you're concerned that the community is being shown in a possibly bad light -- maybe you can point out some of its goodness. (Again I don't know anything about the community other than what I've just read).

Blessings,

[osapientia]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' date='16 June 2010 - 07:39 PM' timestamp='1276727992' post='2130119']
Maybe because it is worth mentioning -- I did a quick search of them and they look to be an interesting community (one that I wouldn't consider only because if I reconsider religious life it would be to a semi-cloistered or an active community, and in all likelihood not Benedictine)

All I said before is that I didn't take the comment the way you took it ... and if you're concerned that the community is being shown in a possibly bad light -- maybe you can point out some of its goodness. (Again I don't know anything about the community other than what I've just read).

Blessings,
[/quote]
I know them very well. They are "different" but I don't think they are "different" in ways that take them outside the general categories of traditionalist, conservative and liberal. They are conservative. They are completely Benedictine and they are in good standing with The Church. I think they offer some things that other monastic communities do not offer...like internships in land management and monastic arts but I don't think that reflects on their "conservatism" or lack thereof.

Just my .02
Osap

[zunshynn]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='16 June 2010 - 04:33 PM' timestamp='1276727636' post='2130116']
It's still unnecessarily singling out a community. If you [i]must[/i] "categorize" communities, and have one that you don't know how to classify, then, seriously, just don't mention them.

I'm sure none of us have tried, or are qualified, to categorize every community out there, so why mention only one out of all of the "unclassifiable" ones?
[/quote]

Wow, two negatives for saying it's rude to single out a community without justification. Nice. I'd forgotten why I'd stopped posting in the vocation station. Now I remember.

I hope you all grow up a little bit before you enter religious life.

Have a nice day.

Edited June 16, 2010 by zunshynn

[morostheos]

[quote name='osapientia' date='16 June 2010 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1276729662' post='2130126']
I know them very well. They are "different" but I don't think they are "different" in ways that take them outside the general categories of traditionalist, conservative and liberal. They are conservative. They are completely Benedictine and they are in good standing with The Church. I think they offer some things that other monastic communities do not offer...like internships in land management and monastic arts but I don't think that reflects on their "conservatism" or lack thereof.

Just my .02
Osap
[/quote]

Thanks for clarifying that - I had never heard of them before today, so I was wondering how it was they were different. Is there anything else?

[krissylou]

Goodness, look what I started.

Sorry about that.

... slinks off ...

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='krissylou' date='16 June 2010 - 08:06 PM' timestamp='1276736787' post='2130178']
Goodness, look what I started.

Sorry about that.

... slinks off ...
[/quote]

Don't apologize, and don't slink off. Please. I understood your question, but I couldn't help because I know so little about various religious communities. I think I understood what you were getting at, but I don't have any good ideas right now for putting the question a better way.

BTW--On Phatmass, we tend to concentrate on habited orders, but there are also excellent Orders who wear modified habits--and get vocations! For example, "my" Sisters wear a modified habit and veil, and although they aren't swamped with vocations like the Nashville Dominicans, four new postulants entered in the past year, which I think most Orders would consider a respectable showing. And, despite the modified habit, from everything I have seen and read, the Order is in line with the Magisterium and doesn't have any practices that I would consider "hinky." (That's a technical term. LOL) So, the length of the habit doesn't necessarily tell you all there is to tell about an Order--if only it were so easy. And, the charism of "my" Sisters" is love for others, inspired by the Eucharist. No wonder they're all so nice!

Zunshyn--If you look, all your -1's are gone (I think) and you even have a few +1's. You have friends (like me), who, even if we've never talked before, don't believe you should get an undeserved -1. By the fact that all your -1's are gone, you obviously have lots of friends in Vocation Station.

Edited June 17, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Thomist-in-Training]

Ay yay yay. My phrasing probably came across as facetious, but it is literally true, as cmariadiaz said (thanks) that they did strike me as outside of the box in [i]several [/i]ways (active or contemplative? neither/both) which made me think and which I am still trying to process. If I visited more Benedictine communities maybe that part would also be clearer to me, or I would have more things that could not be neatly categorized. I certainly [b]didn't [/b]mean they are unfaithful. I don't think it's my job to categorize religious communities for everyone, but as a human being, I [i]do[/i] try to categorize things in my head, which most people do, I assume. So, when krissylou asked about it, I posted what I thought.
I don't believe that this is offensive to them, actually, I think that is probably the kind of thing they would be pleased about (not being able to be put into a slot).

I may, however, be wrong. This has been known to happen.

[morostheos]

I have to say that fourth category of "Regina Laudis" (and other "outside the box" orthodox communities) is the one I find most interesting. I really love so many of the things that they do in their monastic internship, reading that list of stuff makes me drool a bit. I can learn about beekeeping, weaving and spinning AND Gregorian chant all at the same place? That AMAZING! lol

[franciscanheart]

I'm so very confused.

[morostheos]

To get back to the original question, I think it's a really good one - are there other online groups of discerners who are more interested in less traditional communities?

[osapientia]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='16 June 2010 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1276737404' post='2130183']
Ay yay yay. My phrasing probably came across as facetious, but it is literally true, as cmariadiaz said (thanks) that they did strike me as outside of the box in [i]several [/i]ways (active or contemplative? neither/both) which made me think and which I am still trying to process. If I visited more Benedictine communities maybe that part would also be clearer to me, or I would have more things that could not be neatly categorized. I certainly [b]didn't [/b]mean they are unfaithful. I don't think it's my job to categorize religious communities for everyone, but as a human being, I [i]do[/i] try to categorize things in my head, which most people do, I assume. So, when krissylou asked about it, I posted what I thought.
I don't believe that this is offensive to them, actually, I think that is probably the kind of thing they would be pleased about (not being able to be put into a slot).

I may, however, be wrong. This has been known to happen.
[/quote]

Maybe I can offer some insight. Regina Laudis is a Benedictine monastic community. As most Benedictine's they observe constitutional rather than papal enclosure (Solesmes would be a notable exception in this regard as they are Benedictine's who observe papal enclosure). The Rule of St. Benedict addresses "monks on a journey" and so one could certainly then conclude that the Holy Father, St Benedict did not mean for his monks to observe the kind of enclosure offered by say, a Carmelite. Regina Laudis is true to the Rule of St. Benedict in this regard, they do "travel" (though they don't go on "vacation" per se). Three (I think that's the number) of them went to university to earn PhD degrees that would benefit the work of the abbey and one of them (The coagulated milk Nun, Sr. Noella Marcellino) did a year of study in France on a Fullbright scholarship. Mother Dolores Hart, the prioress and former actress, has testified before Congress on issues related to a particular illness The guest mistress interacts regularly with guests and guests of the monastery are afforded the opportunity to work directly with the nuns, though not every nun would interact with a guest for something like an informal "talk" or a "walk outside"....one would most likely do this kind of thing with the guest mistress, prioress or abbess only.

I think we understand this as "different" because most Benedictine communities have been lumped together with other kinds of enclosed communities while RL takes a bit of a more "ancient observance" stance. In fact they describe themselves as "Benedictine nuns of The Ancient Observance". We tend to think the word "monastic" means "cloistered" in a very strict sense and that just isn't so. Benedictine monastic communities became more typically cloistered as time went on but they were not originally so. They are "stable in the monastery" and they don't go journeying about willy nilly from place to place, but they are not Carmelites or Poor Clares...(excepting Solesmes as I already mentioned) A good example would be to look at "active" Benedictine communities, though not considered cloistered by our modern understanding of that word, they are monastic and observe a monastic rule of life, the Rule of St. Benedict.

I think that the most obvious differences at RL are that they have some fairly "high profile" (at least formerly) members, that they offer those internships to lay persons and that they do send their nuns for higher education degrees when necessary. They place a high value on education and a track record for excellence which is their legacy from their foundress, Lady Abbess Benedict Duss, OSB who was a physician and friend of Pope Paul VI. At one point the Holy Father told her (I paraphrase) that the nuns should strive for excellence in all things in the monastery and she carried that throughout her religious life, passing it on to the community.

They are particularly artistic and perform most (if not all) of what would typically be known as "monastic arts" and from a crafts perspective most of them would be considered "masters". They have/have had several attorneys in the community, at least one physician that I know of, a former NY State senator, a princess (she has now passed away) and the grandchild of a very very famous 5 Star US General (there is a great miracle story around her coming to RL).

I could probably go on..but I think you get the picture.....yes, Thomist-in-training, I agree that they are "outside the box" but when it is necessary to categorize (and I think sometimes it is) communities I believe they are rightly placed with the conservative communities. I think the most important thing to know about them is that they are observant Benedictines in good standing with The Church....that said, it can be quite a journey to get to know them well and one I have found worth the effort....categorizing them as something other than the three "main" categories you had originally proposed (I think it was three) might actually keep someone from wanting to get to know them and I think that would be a shame. They are not a community for everyone...no community is, but they are certainly well worth getting to know.

There are some other VS posters who know this community well...perhaps they might offer their thoughts and/or correct me if I've interpreted or communicated something incorrectly.

Oh, one more thing....their names are very interesting (at least I think so).

Pax,
Osap
*edited for typo

Edited June 17, 2010 by osapientia

[TradMom]

+Praised be Jesus Christ!

Dear All,

Osap did a wonderful job of thoroughly explaining Regina Laudis. The only thing I could possibly add is that as Benedictines (just like the nuns I wrote about previously at St. Scholastica's), they LIVE St. Benedict's Rule - which has a special emphasis on hospitality. So, if any of you are in that area and would like a retreat, I recommend going there. Their chant is particularly beautiful (did we mention they do the ENTIRE Divine Office in Latin?) and they have received much attention for what they bring to Holy Mother Church. As Benedictines in offering hospitality, a guest has the "opportunity" to work with the community during their stay. They are quite lovely in that the beginning work is very general (perhaps raking, or dusting) and depending upon one's needs/desires/etc., could end up anywhere! I have had many retreats there and have done the following: painted a room, worked in the gift shop, cleaned the guest house, pulled vegetables (carrots, I think - some kind of root vegetables) inside the cloister garden (which I received permission for), helped in the iron forge (oh, and I made myself a lovely little hook where my robe hangs!) --- and much more. The more they get to know you (if you return, write and take the time to get to know them), the better able they are to match you with a particular job. My dear friend who went with me (one time), ended up working out in one of the fields, hauling lumber. Needless to say, my pregnancy didn't lend itself to such hard work! (A secret relief!)

They have three guesthouses - one for men, one for women and one for families. They ARE very traditional in that they they do not use the internet, they do not have an "assigned" Vocation Mistress and one communicates with them by letter. Once you arrive, it is expected to meet with one of the Nuns - for as long as I have known - it has been a fantastic nun who also serves the Community as Portress and also as a very gifted artist. One would meet her through the grille, and follow up a little bit about the initial letter written. IF you want to go on retreat and participate in the prayer life and not work, just explain that and you will be respected. Most people do consider the participation in their work to be a privilege, however. In working with them and your initial interview with the Sister Portress or Sister Guest Mistress, you might find yourself scheduled to meet with another sister. (Usually through the grille.) You might wonder why this is so, and before you know it, you will find out that you have lots in common...perhaps you and this Sister went to the same school, have the same degree, both like purple - whatever! They do everything they can (as good Benedictines) to foster relationship. As with most traditional Monasteries, the meals are eaten in this manner: Breakfast is simple, eaten in the guest house according to the guest's needs...cereal, muffins, toast, eggs, nuts, etc. "Pick-Up." Lunch is the main meal of the day and consists of a wide variety of foods with dessert (I have been there a couple of times where meat was served - and to me, meat includes fish, chicken, pork and beef - "anything with eyes" and no - I'm not a strict veggie, but try to limit meat.)Great news about the meals - you can pick and choose what you eat as the dishes are passed around. For the sake of charity, and in respect for their hospitality, I typically at least take a little of whatever is offered that I don't like because I know that Sister Cook has spent time counting the guests. No problem in the dessert department! Dinner or supper is very light - a soup (which they make fresh daily) - a wheel of their delicious homemade c*h*e*e*s*e! - and a terrific salad (try to go when it is not snowing - they have sensational gardens). Again, if you don't want to eat anything, you can pass it by. Oh! They also make bread daily, so that is another treat to look forward to. The women eat in one of the parlor rooms (when meals are not being had, this room can be used as a meeting room as it has a full grille, and ample room to pass through large dishes). The men eat in their own guest house, and the families can either cook and eat in their own guest house (depending upon their size, children, etc.) or split up accordingly.

A donation is welcomed after the retreat, but not necessary.

As for the original question regarding "categories" of communities, I think for personal use this might a good idea, but I would not recommend sharing it on a forum such as this one for the reasons expressed in the comments above.

There are only so many official categories a community might fit into. A habit does not necessarily mean a community is orthodox or traditional - just as lack of full habit does not reveal the contrary. For reference, I would invite any interested discerners to look at a pre-Vatican II copy of McCarthy's Guide. Therein you will find a nice number of communities who did not wear the habit (as we know it - with veils, etc.) As an example, I wonder if any of you know of the dear Father Lovasik's foundation of religious women? They were in the common dress of the time (1950's). If you can find a copy, you will see it. They would most certainly be considered very traditional, orthodox, etc. The SDSH do not wear a "traditional" habit but they do dress in common, with a VERY prominent pin and are VERY orthodox/traditional.

There are two groups which have sort of "divided" women's religious communities. One is the Leadership Conference of Women Religious http://www.lcwr.org/. I would "bet" that most of our Phatmassers would not be drawn to the communities within this group, but I believe that has more to do with habits/dress than other qualities (and that is ONLY my opinion). I feel many discerners today WANT to wear a full, traditional habit and immediately dismiss communities that don't based only on that. The second group is the Council of Major Superiors of Women http://www.cmswr.org/ - which most likely will appeal to our Phatmassers.

As for further organization of women's communities...I would invite you to consider the different spiritualities (as an example, you would be surprised at how many Orders are Ignatian based!). As for the Carmelites, a lot has been written here about the Constitutions and the different federations/associations. If you are seriously looking at a Carmel, you should be prepared to understand the difference (not only regarding the Constitutions) but the difference in the Associations and why - in fact - there are some Carmels that do not belong to ANY.

I have digressed from the OP's original question. Apologies! This particular phorum does in fact lean towards the more "conservative" spectrum of all things Catholic. The Baltimore Carmel is lovely, very progressive, very faithful and very true to their Carmelite spirit - but without a habit (though the last time I visited, they did wear their mantle for prayer). As I mentioned above, I really have come to see (and this holds true in my own family) we, as a Church, are experiencing a renewal of women "wanting" the experience of wearing a habit, standing out, being a witness (and believe me! I do not think the only way of witnessing is through a habit!) and the conversations here tend to be centered on habits/outward appearances. That is a major attraction here. We have had a couple of women enter more progressive orders and sadly, in most cases, they did not receive the kind of support our more "traditional" vocations have received, though I am not suggesting in any way that they were treated unkindly.

Here are some additional resources that you might find helpful, in addition to Sister Julie's blog. These resources tend to be more inclusive and might help you. I know there are private "groups" through Yahoo and other services (including Facebook) that offer support and means of connection. As always, please use caution when revealing personal details as the internet is not safe (no matter how many times we are assured that everything is fine!). I am sure you know the basic rules of keeping yourself safe and I am sure this warning is unnecessary, but that's the "Mom" in me!

May God bless and reward you as continue to search to serve Him more fully.

Pax,
TradMom

http://www.vocation-network.org/
http://www.religiousministries.com/
http://www.catholiclinks.org/women.htm

[osapientia]

[quote name='TradMom' date='17 June 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1276800739' post='2130558']
+Praised be Jesus Christ!


May God bless and reward you as continue to search to serve Him more fully.

Pax,
TradMom

http://www.vocation-network.org/
http://www.religiousministries.com/
http://www.catholiclinks.org/women.htm
[/quote]
Oh my gosh, I forgot about the bread and the c*h*e*e*s*e* and the milk..the fabulous, fresh, raw milk. WONDERFUL. Once when I stayed for a couple of weeks I was assigned to work in both the dairy and the bakery. Both were marvelous experiences which I thoroughly enjoyed. In fact, I had my first and only COW-puccino there. For those who have never had the experience of having their first cup of coffee in the morning while milking a cow...let me just say that there is abundant and warm milk available for that cup of coffee and it is rather FROTHY. Hence..the COW-puccino.

As for working in the bakery..well let me just say that all is done with absolute SURGICAL precision and cleanliness...which I surmise is mostly because the dear nun who runs the bakery was a physician..in fact, she was the first female gastroenterologist in the US.

Oh and I forgot one more thing....the beautiful church you see on their website was built by their own hands from lumber they cut and planed themselves....they make their own coffins too and the grille in the church was forged by their "Sr. Blacksmith" on the property where TradMom made her little hook.

Pax,
Osap

Edited June 17, 2010 by osapientia

[krissylou]

Okay, I so need to figure out a time to go there!