PhuturePriest Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Matt Fradd (A well-known Catholic speaker) made an interesting comment today on his Facebook page: "A faithful Catholic is not only obedient to what the Church teaches, he also does not demand uniformity where the Church allows diversity of opinion or custom." This is a very interesting thing to me. On the one hand, you have the less faithful Catholics deciding doctrines aren't really that doctrine-y after all. On the other, you have zealous Catholics not only affirming doctrine, but deciding they themselves can make up new ones as they go. These are people who decide watching TV, women wearing jeans, and secular music are all intrinsically sinful and therefore no Catholic in good standing may participate in them. In other words, people who effectively believe they are the Pope and can infallibly decide moral matters. On the theologically doctrinal side, as a fervent fan of Bishop Barron, this quote reminded me of people denouncing him as a heretic for saying we can hope all will be saved. I've noticed these people tend to justify their judgment using select Saints and passages from scripture (ignoring the more universal texts.) They use the Saints as ideological weapons to shame their opponents and decide what is and isn't doctrine, even though the Church has never said merely hoping all will be saved is heretical. In fact, not only do some Saints support it, but we in fact pray for it constantly throughout our Liturgy, and we can't pray for what is impossible. So the question becomes: Why do some people act like this? Is it in response to the rampant heresy in the Church that they try to over-correct the issue? Or is it because they believe if this or that Saint says something, it must be true? In the words of one person I know: "He openly disagrees with Saint Thomas Aquinas. Aquinas is a Doctor of the Church!" (Conveniently forgetting this same Doctor of the Church also argued against the Immaculate Conception, what is now a dogma.) I'm curious as to your thoughts on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) This reminds me of something I learned long ago as a Jew. In the Bible, God says to the Israelites that they should "stray neither to the right nor to the left of these commandments". I was hangin' with some ultra-Orthodox at the time, frustrated at how they add rule upon rule just to have something more to do. I understood "straying to the right" to be restricting what God did not restrict, and "straying to the left" to be breaking out of God's restraints. Of course, it could just as well go the other way. I only see it this way cuz of France's Parliament. As for why people do it: I think it depends on the individual. I suspect the majority of lefties do it because they just don't want to be restricted by anything, including God, so they conform their dogma to their desires. On the other hand (quite literally), I think righties do what they do either because (1) they see the lefties bustin' up their dogma and get their panties in a wad about it and so over-react to protect the truly sacred core, or (2) it makes them feel all righteous about themselves that now they have more stuff to criticize people about, or (3) both. Edited December 2, 2015 by Gabriela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) A priest told me that since Jesus died on the cross all are now predestined to heaven but we can loose that salvation. But i get the point haters judging and condemning when holy scripture says that we are not to judge and condemn, though of course we still need to protect the flock. I subscribe to the whole advise dont proselytize school of body building and evangelizing and definitely not judging or condemning, though judgements are necessary to avoid someone who refuses to repent from sin,how many people actually go to confession now days anyway? I'm a very lonely man but still i refuse to judge or condemn and hope against hope that everyone is so holy that truly they only need confession once a year. And as far as im aware most doctrine is open for discernment,discussion and debate as is holy scripture, there are some doctrines that arent though as with some scripture. I see it all as the 4 ways to discern scripture, apply it to doctrine as well, and the truth is a double edged sword so im guessing there are at least 2 definitive meaning to each of the four branches of discernment, sounds confusing i know but fun if you take it all with a pinch of salt but also the utmost reverence and respect. And plus Jesus said "seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened" if it wasn't an open field to search freely with ones own conscience and find treasure than perhaps these words of Jesus wouldn't be true. Plus there are weeds amongst the wheat in the kingdom of God whether hater 1 or hater 2 (pharisee or Sadducee) and also we can not pull them out and perhaps we all do a bit of both along the way to perfection in Christ. Oh since i havent been on for a while here is my disclaimer : I COULD BE WRONG. And on the whole T.V thing and top 40 radio stuff anyone who says your not actually catholic by participating in these things is actually wrong because the Holy Magesterium has not made a definitive statement on either, all we can do is advise you that the majority of it contains pagan philosophies on how to live and deal with situations that can actually effect you understanding of the true faith. Plus the possibility of subliminal messages that go into your sub conscience and make you do things you wouldn't usually do. GodblesS. Onward christian souls. Edited December 2, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye disclaimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not The Philosopher Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Looking at more frivolous matters, a cursory glance at the internet indicates there are a lot of people who cannot conceive that someone could possibly dislike their favourite book or movie or activity or whatever without being an [expletive deleted] and suffering from some form of intellectual or moral deficiency. Because it's ego-deflating to accept that your opinion is just your opinion, man, and doesn't infallibly reflect the structure of reality or whatever. Probably a similar dynamic here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Religion = Charity and Charity = Love, if you have not Religion you have not Faith, for how are you to Love He whom you can not see if 1st you can not Love he whom you can see. But in that charity is also not concealing the known truth and love also demands disciplinary actions at times when called for to protect the fold. God puts people behind bars, believe that. Edited December 2, 2015 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 5 hours ago, PhuturePriest said: Is it in response to the rampant heresy in the Church that they try to over-correct the issue? You make a good point here, and I think it has something to do with it. It would seem that we are reactionary creatures that way. God knows so many in the Church have been bending over backwards for the past few decades trying to over-correct or overcompensate for what they felt was wrong with the Church prior to Vatican II. So naturally, there are those who try to push the pendulum in the opposite direction as hard as they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Remember boys and gals to not H8 tha H8ters or your just a H8ter. lol. not saying dont keep talking about it though, just saying just in case, dont want none of yall caught in a downward spiral of H8 and condemnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) I was listening to a YouTube lecture today by Peter Brown, the scholar of Christian antiquity, and he was discussing the different models of monasticism that emerged among the followers of Mani, among the Syrians, and in Egypt. In the Q&A he was asked about division in the church today vs. way back then, and he said humorously that he doesn't know if Christianty would have survived except for the remarkable ability of its members to fight each other. Otherwise it might have gone the way of Buddhism in Japan and faded out, but somehow Christians had a unique gift to dig their heels in and fight eachother. Edited December 2, 2015 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) "These are people who decide watching TV, women wearing jeans, and secular music are all intrinsically sinful and therefore no Catholic in good standing may participate in them. In other words, people who effectively believe they are the Pope and can infallibly decide moral matters." To be honest I don't think its correct to say that all people like this are trying to make up doctrines. I for myself don't believe in women wearing jeans. Do I think its a doctrine? No. Do I think I have authority to proclaim doctrine? Definitely not. I just believe it in respect of St Padre Pio. Its not in my own authority but trusting his view because he's a Saint I respect. I don't think its really accurate to say that people cite Saints just to confirm their view. What if my view changed due to this Saint? Then I'm hardly adhering to his view for that reason. I just feel like its a common judgement of "trads" but aren't we advised not to guess peoples intentions? Calling people Pharisees seems like acting against judgemental attitudes but there's a danger of it becoming a judgement of these people. The trads i know are not Pharisees even if they believe some extra things they read in a book. It doesn't mean we hate women wearing jeans or people who watch TV or that we look down on them. Maybe some do and maybe its a common temptation, but don't people in the world sometimes wrongly speak of Catholics as Pharisees? Let's not do that to each other maybe some people have other views but they are not trying to be the Pope and their view is in tradition.. They are just seeking the truth too. I don't agree with jeans and I'm only ok with TV and secular music if it has no problems at all with it but I'm not saying its doctrine, rather something that made sense when I looked into it. Edited December 2, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I'm sorry that I maybe sounded angry or something in my above post. It wasn't my intent I'm just typing really fast. I guess it is a sensitive issue in a way too. But hopefully we can all understand each other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not The Philosopher Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 I don't think FP is trying to say that you can't have an opinion about jeans, etc - it's more about accusing people of being bad Catholics for disagreeing about something that isn't doctrinally binding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Oh ok! sorry FP I think I had a knee jerk reaction in a way. On the topic of the Pharisees I just read this and i thought it was good! http://aleteia.org/2015/11/10/5-signs-of-a-modern-day-pharisee/ Edited December 2, 2015 by MarysLittleFlower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted December 2, 2015 Author Share Posted December 2, 2015 3 hours ago, MarysLittleFlower said: "These are people who decide watching TV, women wearing jeans, and secular music are all intrinsically sinful and therefore no Catholic in good standing may participate in them. In other words, people who effectively believe they are the Pope and can infallibly decide moral matters." To be honest I don't think its correct to say that all people like this are trying to make up doctrines. I for myself don't believe in women wearing jeans. Do I think its a doctrine? No. Do I think I have authority to proclaim doctrine? Definitely not. I just believe it in respect of St Padre Pio. Its not in my own authority but trusting his view because he's a Saint I respect. I don't think its really accurate to say that people cite Saints just to confirm their view. What if my view changed due to this Saint? Then I'm hardly adhering to his view for that reason. I just feel like its a common judgement of "trads" but aren't we advised not to guess peoples intentions? Calling people Pharisees seems like acting against judgemental attitudes but there's a danger of it becoming a judgement of these people. The trads i know are not Pharisees even if they believe some extra things they read in a book. It doesn't mean we hate women wearing jeans or people who watch TV or that we look down on them. Maybe some do and maybe its a common temptation, but don't people in the world sometimes wrongly speak of Catholics as Pharisees? Let's not do that to each other maybe some people have other views but they are not trying to be the Pope and their view is in tradition.. They are just seeking the truth too. I don't agree with jeans and I'm only ok with TV and secular music if it has no problems at all with it but I'm not saying its doctrine, rather something that made sense when I looked into it. It certainly wasn't meant as a slight against trads. Many of my friends are trads, and I myself have a reputation for being one. I never recall calling any of these people pharisees. And I certainly don't think you or others like you hate women, by any means. The issue I was taking with is when people say listening to secular music is wrong for everyone, even if that's not something at all established by the Church. You don't seem to be this type of person, and admittedly these people are way on the fringe -- I just found the quote by Matt Fradd interesting and I wanted to explore it a bit. I'm sorry if it came off as judgmental, as that certainly wasn't my intention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarysLittleFlower Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Its ok PP, in this case its really me who was way off sorry about that! I jumped to conclusions about what this thread was about and didn't think carefully. Mea culpa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 It's all fun and games until we start talking about jeans. just kidding, carry on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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