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PhuturePriest

Dubia Round Two -- Formal Correction on Horizon?

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KnightofChrist
On 6/21/2017 at 11:54 AM, Era Might said:

Well played, sir lol.

Part of the problem may be they sound like buffoons. I know they're professional clerics, but, I mean, they sound so full of themselves, like a reply or lack of a reply is going to change the course of world history. If they're going to "correct" the Pope at least do it like men. Talk like St. Paul: I opposed Peter to his face because he stood condemned. All this "sweet Christ on earth" piousness, please...especially with this Pope.

Also, silence can be a reply.

Cardinals humbly ask for a face to face meeting but Pope refuses to meet them.

Era: The Cardinals are a bunch of stupid, smelly apes full of their own crapulence, who aren't man enough to correct Francis to his face.

 

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PhuturePriest

Should the cardinals make good on their promise with a formal correction of Amoris Laetitia, what do you guys believe will be the repercussions?

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allegra

So, why don't they just show up together at a regular Wednesday General Papal Audience? :think:

Every (!) cardinal or bishop present inevitably gets the occasion for a papal "baciamano" (handshake) after the audience, and some chat even for minutes with him. There's always a long line, and many of those lining up would most probably never be granted a formal private audience or get to see the Holy Father otherwise (e.g. auxiliary bishops accompanying a youth group and the like).

 

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Era Might
10 hours ago, KnightofChrist said:

Cardinals humbly ask for a face to face meeting but Pope refuses to meet them.

Era: The Cardinals are a bunch of stupid, smelly apes full of their own crapulence, who aren't man enough to correct Francis to his face.

 

It's all how you spin the story.

Pope issues letter on love and family.

Cardinals: The gates of hell are collapsing, we are going to correct you!

1 hour ago, PhuturePriest said:

Should the cardinals make good on their promise with a formal correction of Amoris Laetitia, what do you guys believe will be the repercussions?

3. Since “time is greater than space”, I would make it clear that not all discussions of doctrinal, moral or pastoral issues need to be settled by interventions of the magisterium. Unity of teaching and practice is certainly necessary in the Church, but this does not preclude various ways of interpreting some aspects of that teaching or drawing certain consequences from it. This will always be the case as the Spirit guides us towards the entire truth (cf. Jn 16:13), until he leads us fully into the mystery of Christ and enables us to see all things as he does. Each country or region, moreover, can seek solutions better suited to its culture and sensitive to its traditions and local needs. For “cultures are in fact quite diverse and every general principle… needs to be inculturated, if it is to be respected and applied”.

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Jack4
18 minutes ago, Era Might said:

It's all how you spin the story.

Pope John speaks on eternal life. 

Will it be "Cardinals: The gates of hell are collapsing, we are going to correct you!"?

1 hour ago, PhuturePriest said:

Should the cardinals make good on their promise with a formal correction of Amoris Laetitia, what do you guys believe will be the repercussions?

I fear that the actual fraternal correction will be ignored, just as the actual dubia were ignored; I fear that there will be vitriol toward the four Cardinals for the fraternal correction, just as there was vitriol toward the four Cardinals for the dubia.  

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KnightofChrist
25 minutes ago, Era Might said:

It's all how you spin the story.

Pope issues letter on love and family.

Cardinals: The gates of hell are collapsing, we are going to correct you!

No, no, it's just a bit strange and duh duh childishly disrespectful for you to mock the courage of the Cardinals to correct the Pope to his face when they have asked to meet the Pope but he refuses to meet them face to face. 

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Era Might
1 minute ago, KnightofChrist said:

No, no, it's just a bit strange and duh duh childishly disrespectful for you to mock the courage of the Cardinals to correct the Pope to his face when they have asked to meet the Pope but he refuses to meet them face to face. 

What's courageous about it? The idea that they're going to "correct" the Pope already assumes that they're in the right. What are they going to say in a meeting that they haven't already said? Maybe the Pope already said all he's gonna say in AL. Maybe he has nothing to add. So, how about the Cardinals go back to their Sees, wash the feet of some lepers, and call it a day. That would be courageous.

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Jack4
36 minutes ago, Era Might said:

It's all how you spin the story.

Pope issues letter on love and family.

Cardinals: The gates of hell are collapsing, we are going to correct you!

Or, we can give the story another spin:

Pope: Venerable brethren, speak with parrhesia

Cardinals: With parrhesia, we'd like to ask some doubts...

Or

Pope: I want a conversion of the papacy! It is my duty, as the Bishop of Rome, to be open to suggestions which can help make the exercise of my ministry more faithful to the meaning which Jesus Christ wished to give it and to the present needs of evangelization!

Pope: Those in the Church should listen!

Cardinals: We'd like to meet and talk with you...

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dominicansoul
2 hours ago, Era Might said:

What's courageous about it? The idea that they're going to "correct" the Pope already assumes that they're in the right. What are they going to say in a meeting that they haven't already said? Maybe the Pope already said all he's gonna say in AL. Maybe he has nothing to add. So, how about the Cardinals go back to their Sees, wash the feet of some lepers, and call it a day. That would be courageous.

If the Pope represents Christ on earth, would Christ ignore his brothers?  

 

 

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Era Might
7 minutes ago, dominicansoul said:

If the Pope represents Christ on earth, would Christ ignore his brothers?  

 

 

I don't want to be sarcastic about the question, but, it never ended well when the disciples tried to correct Christ. They always lost the case, not by argument, but because he refused to argue, he confounded.

Of course, it's not a literal comparison. Your question is fine, but, the Pope is dealing with fellow career clerics. He probably doesn't agree with their view of things, otherwise, he wouldn't have written AL. What is the Pope supposed to do, call a debate because a couple of cardinals took issue with his document? People all over the world take issue with the Pope. I recall a while back Pope Benedict meeting privately with Hans Kung, two men with very different views of things, but also two old friends and colleagues. The point of the meeting wasn't to respond to Kung's arguments or get into a dispute, it was just a meeting of brothers.

That's a very different situation.

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Francis Clare

A.L. is a real "hot potato"!  I'm not really happy with the Pope right now because of his actions with the Order of Malta....but he IS the Pope, so that leaves me little room for dissent.  After all, I never received a ballot or questionnaire.....same with A.L.  So I just go on doing my Catholic thing and biting my tongue.

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KnightofChrist
7 hours ago, Era Might said:

What's courageous about it? The idea that they're going to "correct" the Pope already assumes that they're in the right. What are they going to say in a meeting that they haven't already said? Maybe the Pope already said all he's gonna say in AL. Maybe he has nothing to add. So, how about the Cardinals go back to their Sees, wash the feet of some lepers, and call it a day. That would be courageous.

You are the one who questioned their manliness, and courage for not correcting the Pope to his face. Which is complete krap because he will not meet them face to face. If you're not far out in left with some wacked out nonsense questioning the very fabric of reality you're making dip chip insults. 

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Seven77
2 hours ago, Francis Clare said:

A.L. is a real "hot potato"!  I'm not really happy with the Pope right now because of his actions with the Order of Malta....but he IS the Pope, so that leaves me little room for dissent.  After all, I never received a ballot or questionnaire.....same with A.L.  So I just go on doing my Catholic thing and biting my tongue.

 

I feel you. Why weren't we consulted?

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Jack4
8 hours ago, Era Might said:

it never ended well when the disciples tried to correct Christ. They always lost the case, not by argument, but because he refused to argue, he confounded.

Source?

 

Quote

a couple of cardinals

What are the functions of a Cardinal in the Church?

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fides' Jack
11 hours ago, Era Might said:

What's courageous about it? The idea that they're going to "correct" the Pope already assumes that they're in the right. What are they going to say in a meeting that they haven't already said? Maybe the Pope already said all he's gonna say in AL. Maybe he has nothing to add. So, how about the Cardinals go back to their Sees, wash the feet of some lepers, and call it a day. That would be courageous.

Would you prefer if their letter was full of expletives like so much of what passes for literature these days because "that's how people actually talk and so it's not fake"?  There is a certain degree of respect that they owe to the Seat of Peter, and that is why the letters and dubia are worded the way they are.  It wouldn't be appropriate, otherwise.  It's not false piety - it's actual piety which I suspect maybe you aren't able to recognize.

For these cardinals to go and bury their heads in the sand, as you recommend, would be sinful and lukewarm.

9 hours ago, Era Might said:

I don't want to be sarcastic about the question, but, it never ended well when the disciples tried to correct Christ. They always lost the case, not by argument, but because he refused to argue, he confounded.

Of course, it's not a literal comparison. Your question is fine, but, the Pope is dealing with fellow career clerics. He probably doesn't agree with their view of things, otherwise, he wouldn't have written AL. What is the Pope supposed to do, call a debate because a couple of cardinals took issue with his document? People all over the world take issue with the Pope. I recall a while back Pope Benedict meeting privately with Hans Kung, two men with very different views of things, but also two old friends and colleagues. The point of the meeting wasn't to respond to Kung's arguments or get into a dispute, it was just a meeting of brothers.

That's a very different situation.

Hmm...  You seem to think that these cardinals are looking for a final answer from the Pope to these questions (dubia).  That is not what's going on here.  They don't want to go to the Pope and say, "Hey, Papa, we have these questions.  You seem to be saying Catholics can go to Communion while they're living in sin.  Can you confirm whether or not you're saying that?"  And then if the Pope says, "Yes, that's what I'm saying."  Then they'll say, "Oh, OK.  Thanks, we just wanted to make sure that's what you really meant."  And that'll be the end of it.

No.

They're not looking for the Pope's final answer on some controversial topic.  They're looking for the Pope to affirm what has been the constant teaching of the Church since the time of Christ.  The teaching that you can't receive Holy Communion in a state of Mortal sin.  If you do, you compound your sins and deserve everlasting hell fire.  That has always been the teaching.

I think you do understand that, but behind several statements here there is also the tone that "we shouldn't be questioning the Pope, because we aren't the Pope."  But the Pope is not above truth.  Never has been.  And every Christian (read: Catholic) has a duty to the Way, the Truth, and the Life, before their duty to the Magisterium.  And we know from the Bible that there will be a time when our moral authority (member of the Church) will be speaking falsehoods, and we are warned to watch out for those falsehoods.  

 

FP: thanks for posting the links!  Super helpful!

Edited by fides' Jack
Wanted to address additional point.

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