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Dubia Round Two -- Formal Correction on Horizon?

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Jack4

1. Compared to Francis, St JP2 gives more emphasis to the reality of sin and the need to stop sinning. 

2. Pope Francis does not give as much importance to the fact that the Commandments are never impossible due to our weakness.

3. fwiw, St JP2 is crystal clear on the practical question of who may receive Communion. No confusion, no ambiguity. 

I would encourage you to read the exhortations yourself. 

Edited by Jack4

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Era Might
4 hours ago, fides' Jack said:

Yes, I would say they are ideological conservatives.  I don't see what's wrong with that.  I don't agree that conservative ideology tries to weed out any "potential subversive".  In fact, I think we've seen that far more from the left over the last couple years - at least in the political sphere in the US.

I did not say that the Cardinals aren't even accusing the Pope.  I think there is certainly a hint of accusation in the dubia.  I think it's also right that there should be.  They're defending not just the letter of the law, but also the spirit of the law, as well as the individual souls of all Christians today.  That's the point.

I wonder if you question all law, or just law that doesn't agree with your standpoint on certain issues?  Do you think this is just a matter of a law?  If it were, the Cardinals would have nothing to point out.  This is not an issue like immigration or even whether or not priests can marry.  This is an issue of moral teaching - not law.  It's a matter that will ultimately beaver dam many souls to hell for all eternity.  It's not something the Pope or anyone else has the authority to change.

Yes, the idea of subversives is embedded in the right/left worldview. Pope Francis knows this very well, he is from Argentina where revolution and counterrevolution (or "reaction") defined society.

I don't believe the Gospel has anything to do with Law. To have a law at all is to be broken, because the Law is like a glue that holds pieces together. No matter how much glue you have, you're still broken. That's what Israel couldn't understand, even before Christ. Even if they followed every last Law, they were still broken and needed Law to hold them together. The message of the Gospel is not the perfection of Law, but a new creation where Law not only does not but cannot exist, because nothing is broken. All is made new.

I reject the idea of marriage as an institution of Law. Or at least, I reject that this institution of marriage has anything to do with the Gospel. When Christ spoke on divorce, he was not laying down a Law but revealing an Ideal, the Ideal of the New Man who comes into being, not when he obeys the Law, but when he overcomes the Law through love. Christ's teaching on divorce is only a specific application of his teaching on love: forgive your brother 70 times 7, love your enemy, do good to those who persecute you, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, beat your breast and say only, I am an unprofitable servant, have mercy on me, God, a sinner. When Christ tells a man he cannot leave his wife, and vice versa, he is only telling them what he tells everyone: you cannot leave your brother. When did we see you hungry, Lord, and not feed you? The Other is God, is Christ, and that encompasses every Other. When Christ says a husband and wife can't separate, he is saying, if you cannot forgive each other, if you cannot love this person, then how are you going to love another? The Gospel begins here, with the person in front of you, not in an ideal or a law.

The church, unfortunately, often takes on the role of sex and morality police. How many of us walk by our brother on the street every day, by Christ on the street every day, and yet, when it comes to two people divorcing, suddenly the world collapses. On the Last Day, will Christ ask whether we obeyed the Law? No, he will ask, did you feed your brother, did you clothe your brother, did you visit your brother in prison.

The problem I have with these cardinals is they want to reduce the Gospel to points of Law, even moral law. As you put it, this is a religion of extremes, where morality and sin are two mountains we hang between, and we have to hold on for life lest we fall. No, I reject this idea of the Gospel. I don't look to bishops and theologians to really say anything real about religion, because they tend to think the way these cardinals do, they are keepers of Law and Order.

The Gospel is messy. When we think we are the keepers of the Gospel, when we think we are the obeyers of the Law, that is when the Gospel confounds us, because God has no use for our laws and sacrifices, he wants a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Georges Bernanos wrote a great novel called Diary of a Country Priest, where the main character is an alcoholic on the run from the Communists during the Mexican revolution. Another priest in the story has taken a wife to keep his life. At the end of the novel, the alcoholic priest is dying, and the only person who can hear his confession is this priest who has abandoned his priesthood and took a wife. And, he realizes suddenly, in the final words of the story, "All is grace." Not law, not ideas, but grace, and love, and mercy. So before we even get into what marriage is, I think we have to learn what it isn't, and so I don't have much regard for those who see the world through a legalistic prism of this person is validly whatever. No, the Gospel starts from love, not law.

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Peace
6 hours ago, Jack4 said:

1. Compared to Francis, St JP2 gives more emphasis to the reality of sin and the need to stop sinning. 

2. Pope Francis does not give as much importance to the fact that the Commandments are never impossible due to our weakness.

3. fwiw, St JP2 is crystal clear on the practical question of who may receive Communion. No confusion, no ambiguity. 

I would encourage you to read the exhortations yourself. 

I already read them, but thanks for the encouragement.

Agree with point 3.

Disagree with points 1 and 2. The whole point of the 8th chapter deals with the question of how to help bring people into conformity with the Church's ideal.

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BarbaraTherese
6 hours ago, Era Might said:

the Ideal of the New Man who comes into being, not when he obeys the Law, but when he overcomes the Law through love.

Thank you, Era - including for your beautiful post - much appreciated :flowers:  The above statement is exactly what St Augustine meant "Love and do what you will" - true love (agape) fulfils The Law and transcends it or goes beyond it, in Love.  One does not need to be told what The Law is because in Loving, one WILL transcend it and go beyond it. With an emphasis on The Law to be fulfilled it can  become a mentality of an end point in itself: "if I fulfil The Law, I have done what is necessary.  Full stop" and is choosing the Old Testament without realising the transcending nature of the New Testament and Love - the Love that comes from God and returns to Him.  Agape has no end point except in God who is Love - we see this in the death of Jesus, "who dies for us while we were yet sinners", fulfilling The Will of His Father even to a horrific and seemingly at the time meaningless death.  It seems to me that one might die for a good man, not necessarily for an evil (sinner) person - but how terribly difficult to the human spirit to die when to others it is completely meaninglessly seemingly to destroy one's lifetime efforts.  The apostles do well to be afraid as it was the Roman custom at times to round up friends and even family of the crucified to be crucified too.

It is in today's Gospel, Tuesday 27th June: "  ‘So always treat others as you would like them to treat you; that is the meaning of the Law and the Prophets."

It seems to me that this Dubia is stirring in people a need to know "what must be done to inherit eternal life? I need The Law to tell me what to do - to tell me what others should be doing."  What we need to do is to expire in Love - in agape - in the footsteps of Jesus.  Then we will have fulfilled the whole Law and the Prophets; hence, we remain sinners in dire need of God's Loving Mercy freely offered in Jesus.  The Law has no power at all to save, only Love (agape) can save since it is sharing in the Life of God acting in Him outwards and returning to Him.

I am rather eagerly awaiting the final results of the Dubia addressed to Pope Francis.  He is not responding and I suspect awaiting in Hope and prayer for the cardinals to wake up to themselves.  Just as Jesus tried very hard to wake up the Pharisees to themselves .........but not by waiting in Hope:)

I cannot help but reflect on the trial of Jesus.  "What is Truth?"........Jesus does not answer.

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Era Might
31 minutes ago, BarbaraTherese said:

Thank you, Era - including for your beautiful post - much appreciated :flowers:  The above statement is exactly what St Augustine meant "Love and do what you will" - true love (agape) fulfils The Law and transcends it or goes beyond it, in Love.  One does not need to be told what The Law is because in Loving, one WILL transcend it and go beyond it. With an emphasis on The Law to be fulfilled it can  become a mentality of an end point in itself: "if I fulfil The Law, I have done what is necessary.  Full stop" and is choosing the Old Testament without realising the transcending nature of the New Testament and Love - the Love that comes from God and returns to Him.  Agape has no end point except in God who is Love - we see this in the death of Jesus, "who dies for us while we were yet sinners", fulfilling The Will of His Father even to a horrific and seemingly at the time meaningless death.  It seems to me that one might die for a good man, not necessarily for an evil (sinner) person - but how terribly difficult to the human spirit to die when to others it is completely meaninglessly seemingly to destroy one's lifetime efforts.  The apostles do well to be afraid as it was the Roman custom at times to round up friends and even family of the crucified to be crucified too.

It is in today's Gospel, Tuesday 27th June: "  ‘So always treat others as you would like them to treat you; that is the meaning of the Law and the Prophets."

It seems to me that this Dubia is stirring in people a need to know "what must be done to inherit eternal life? I need The Law to tell me what to do - to tell me what others should be doing."  What we need to do is to expire in Love - in agape - in the footsteps of Jesus.  Then we will have fulfilled the whole Law and the Prophets; hence, we remain sinners in dire need of God's Loving Mercy freely offered in Jesus.  The Law has no power at all to save, only Love (agape) can save since it is sharing in the Life of God acting in Him outwards and returning to Him.

I am rather eagerly awaiting the final results of the Dubia addressed to Pope Francis.  He is not responding and I suspect awaiting in Hope and prayer for the cardinals to wake up to themselves.  Just as Jesus tried very hard to wake up the Pharisees to themselves .........but not by waiting in Hope:)

I cannot help but reflect on the trial of Jesus.  "What is Truth?"........Jesus does not answer.

Yes! And you remind me of one of my favorite passage, which stopped me in my tracks when I first read it, in the Psalms: I have run the way of your commandments, for you have enlarged my heart. We are all so petty in everything we do, all of us. Love is always humbling because it introduces us to a person who did not exist until loved into existence. Ultimately, we all cease to exist, for in loving perfectly we give birth to Christ, the New Man, and there is none but Christ, all becomes Christ and returns to the Father, for even Christ only exists to love another, to return everything to his father.

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BarbaraTherese
17 minutes ago, Era Might said:

Yes! And you remind me of one of my favorite passage, which stopped me in my tracks when I first read it, in the Psalms: I have run the way of your commandments, for you have enlarged my heart. We are all so petty in everything we do, all of us. Love is always humbling because it introduces us to a person who did not exist until loved into existence. Ultimately, we all cease to exist, for in loving perfectly we give birth to Christ, the New Man, and there is none but Christ, all becomes Christ and returns to the Father, for even Christ only exists to love another, to return everything to his father.

Oh yeahhh.........."petty" sure is the word!  My SD and confessor is calling on me Friday (I am a bit incapacitated at the moment) and "petty" is a word on which I will be focusing.  I have a continual feeling and awareness indeed knowlege I am continually falling well short, reminding me of another sentence by St Augustine "our hearts are restless, Lord, until they rest in Thee".  That sounds wonderful and consoling, until one experiences it - that restlessness (a deep longing for what one does not know really) - and I think without complete trust in the Loving Mercy of Jesus one just could not bear that kind of restlessness.   I fall well short of Christ, well short indeed and therefore am a sinner - but it is Jesus Himself who fills the lack in His Loving Mercy.  He draws all things to Himself returning all to His Father.

A Benedictine prioress gave an address to her community about sinners and saints.  She commented that that very nun who annoyed all because she just could not keep silence, was the very nun always eager to help others and first to see another of her sisters in need.  We are all sinners somewhere - we are all saints somewhere.

What gets at me is why is my sin less serious than another's - only God knows if full knowledge and full consent was actually truly present.  Certainly, The Church provides a guide to serious and less serious sin and the whys and wherefores.  However, that guide does not allow me to sit in any sort of judgement on others for sure.  I think I even have to sit uneasily where myself is concerned - and I think we all must.  Final type of judgement that is.  We certainly need to assess in various ways as we journey through life, but that can never ever be infallible.  Nothing about our poor, weak and fallen natures is infallible i.e. beyond making any sort of mistake.

Edited by BarbaraTherese

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Nihil Obstat

Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat.

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BarbaraTherese
24 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat.

:)

 
Ego sum Alpha et Omega ........... ( thank you, Mr Google, for the English to Latin.  Latin always was, is and will be a miserable failure of mine.)
Translates: "I am The Beginning and The End"
 
(Revelations Chapter 1 ""I am the Alpha and the Omega," 6 says the Lord God, "the one who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty."

Image result for quotation: christ today, christ tomorrow

Edited by BarbaraTherese

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BarbaraTherese
3 hours ago, Era Might said:

Yes! And you remind me of one of my favorite passage, which stopped me in my tracks when I first read it, in the Psalms: I have run the way of your commandments, for you have enlarged my heart. We are all so petty in everything we do, all of us. Love is always humbling because it introduces us to a person who did not exist until loved into existence. Ultimately, we all cease to exist, for in loving perfectly we give birth to Christ, the New Man, and there is none but Christ, all becomes Christ and returns to the Father, for even Christ only exists to love another, to return everything to his father.

That is really profound, Era. 

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Ice_nine

I think part of the issue is that we don't really know what love is. We often mistake other things for love, indifference, cowardice; and I mean this in the sense that we seem to often sit by and do nothing while the people we say we love skip happily to perdition. Christ talked about love fulfilling the law, He talked about those who would be thrown into the unquenchable fire, He told us not to be afraid. He told us to regard ourselves as servants and slaves on one hand but to regard ourselves as sons of God the Father.

It can all seem conflicting. I don't claim to understand the Gospel fully. There's a lot going on in my mind and life that is disturbing me and shaking the foundations of my faith. I've been in situations too many times where I thought I was doing things out of love, when in reality I was just allowing people to commit evil and participating in evil myself. I 've been really deluded.

Especially in this current epoch where love is equated with feelings, and individual autonomy is given the highest reverence. I think the cardinals are just trying to avoid this. We are fallen, and broken. We need rules. Christ said "if you love me, you will follow my commandments." But love is such a mysterious and confounding thing. And the word has been co-opted in a post-Christian society to mean something a lot different than what Christ spoke about.

I'm sure when St. Peter told Christ that he would not let his master die he thought he was acting in love, and Christ responded by saying "Get behind me Satan!" How many times have I been wrong and not even known it?

I think the "peace and love" folk could have something to learn from the more "rigid" traditionalists and vice versa.

But I don't know.

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truthfinder

Seriously, we would all benefit if we go and re-read what the Catechism says (and no, I'm not linking the Catechism of Trent, or the Baltimore Catechisms). When we're talking about love, we should really be using 'charity' - so http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a7.htm#1822 the paragraph on charity.

Charity is the 'fullness of the Law', 'charity demands...fraternal correction': 'Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God.'

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Nihil Obstat
8 minutes ago, truthfinder said:

 (and no, I'm not linking the Catechism of Trent, or the Baltimore Catechisms).

:o Trad card revoked!

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truthfinder
7 minutes ago, Nihil Obstat said:

:o Trad card revoked!

No! I'll put on my scholar hat, and start quoting from hand-copied versions of Bellarmine's Christine Doctrine.

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truthfinder
34 minutes ago, Ice_nine said:

What does it mean when the catechism says love is "disinterested"?

from whatever dictionary google is displaying: 'not influenced by considerations of personal advantage.'

Am I doing good for another out of my own pride, so that others will think well of me, or because there is some other benefit to me?

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Era Might

I think charity and love are different in this sense: charity, as quoted in the Catechism above, is a philosophical virtue. It's sort of the mirror of wisdom, where wisdom is understanding of how things fit together for a Whole, a Good, and charity is sort of wisdom in action, being able to order things so that they fit together into a Whole, a Good.

But, I don't think that's what love is. Charity can involve "fraternal correction" but not love, because love is something that is irrational, passionate, despairing. "God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son..." This was not an act of correction, but a foolish and passionate act on God's part, to send his own son. We can see the same thing in the story of Cain and Abel. Cain was angry that God loved Abel's sacrifice, for no apparent reason, just because. But what happened after Cain slew Abel? God said, any man who touches Cain will be avenged sevenfold. God's favor for Cain was even more irrational and extravagant than his favor for Abel.

On the Cross, Christ could not be charitable, he could only love. It would be absurd for Christ to look down from the Cross and fraternally correct his brothers, as Socrates did when he was executed. Love is a negative virtue, not positive. Charity is a bond between people, but love is destructive, it breaks bonds to give way to someone new. Love is going two miles when a man asks you to go one, because in asking you to go one mile, he is setting up a competition, an eye for an eye, and in going two miles you don't meet him, you go absurdly the opposite way, not one but two, not your cloak but your shoes as well. Who can answer that? Nobody, it's an act of renunciation, of death. I think that's what Peter didn't understand, he didn't want Christ to go to Jerusalem, but what could Christ do here on earth? You can't love anything except by leaving it. If Christ had stayed on earth, he could have set up a fine religion. I have a lot of regard for Catholicism as a philosophical system for practical living. I think it's pretty good, a nice philosophy, things like charity and temperance and fortitude. But I think the Gospel has nothing to do with any of that, the Gospel is something that is beyond that, can only be found in silence and death. And, ultimately, that is an essential point about marriage. The goal of marriage is love, which is not to be together, but to leave each other, to leave kids and spouse and ultimately to leave yourself and find only God. But, marriage as an institution has other ends. The goal is to set people up to stay here on earth, through property, inheritance, family names, wealth. Family and marriage is the secular equivalent of religion, and the Gospel confounds both of them, I think.

Edited by Era Might

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Ice_nine
3 hours ago, truthfinder said:

from whatever dictionary google is displaying: 'not influenced by considerations of personal advantage.'

Am I doing good for another out of my own pride, so that others will think well of me, or because there is some other benefit to me?

But how can you really know? Maybe I'm cynical, or too influenced by Freudian ideas, but deep down, do we know our hidden motivations? Don't we choose friends and lovers because they do offer something to us? Don't we help people because sometimes it just feels good to do so?

It almost makes it seem like, if you want to receive love, you are not capable of truly loving someone else.

But the human heart is designed to receive love. Even the heart of Christ, when he took on human form, was and is meant to receive love yes?

 

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Nihil Obstat
5 hours ago, truthfinder said:

No! I'll put on my scholar hat, and start quoting from hand-copied versions of Bellarmine's Christine Doctrine.

This pleases me.

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KnightofChrist
1 hour ago, Ice_nine said:

But how can you really know? Maybe I'm cynical, or too influenced by Freudian ideas, but deep down, do we know our hidden motivations? Don't we choose friends and lovers because they do offer something to us? Don't we help people because sometimes it just feels good to do so?

It almost makes it seem like, if you want to receive love, you are not capable of truly loving someone else.

But the human heart is designed to receive love. Even the heart of Christ, when he took on human form, was and is meant to receive love yes?

 

I would say we can know true love without personal advantage when we love our enemies. Many martyrs have died forgiving their persecutors. Using the last moments of life to pray for the souls of their killers. There is little personal advantage in such cases.  

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Ice_nine

I was talking about in our everyday experience, like when we're not being murdered or anything. And the human heart's need to receive love in this context hasn't been addressed.

It seems lately I have more questions than answers. Sometimes it feels like God is silent, and my faith is weak. I feel a bit defeated. I know I'm veering off topic but maybe you can all pray for me to find answers, as many things are troubling me.

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