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Papal Confusion And Mistakes { Almost Classic B-16 }


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#1 Eutychus Posted 23 August 2006 - 04:26 PM

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Goodness, this might be the WORST case of eisegesis instead of exegesis that I have ever seen. Amillenial, preterist, allegorical, confused, mismash of conflicting and biblically unlettered to the Nth degree. :blink:

More confusion to lull people to sleep. More mocking of Gods prophecy and SCOFFING exactly as Paul said would happen in the end times.. :o



2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.


That is WHAT he is saying after all..

ALL THINGS CONTINUE AS THEY WERE FROM THE BEGINNING OF CREATION:


Vatican City (AsiaNews) – Suffering is not “the last word” in the history of the world and the Church, but a “point of passage towards happiness and, even it [suffering] is already mysteriously soaked” with “joy” and “hope”: Benedict XVI spoke these words to more than 7,000 pilgrims gathered in Paul VI Hall for the weekly audience, explaining the highlights of the book of the Apocalypse of St John, often moving away from his prepared speech to add impromptu comments.


The pope said that contrary to usual interpretation, the Apocalypse was not about an “overhanging catastrophe” or “enigmas to be resolved”. Rather it told about the persecutions suffered by Christians throughout history, aiming to instill the certainty of a “victory of the Lamb, slaughtered and yet standing upright”, becoming a comfort for Christians, especially those of Asia.
The reference to Asia and persecution against Christians is above all literary: the Apocalypse, said the pontiff, “should be understood in the background of the dramatic experiences of the seven Churches of Asia (Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamon, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea) that at the end of the first century had to face heavy difficulties in their witness to Christ. John turned to them, showing animated pastoral sensitivity towards the persecuted Christians, who he exhorted to remain strong in the faith and not to identify with the pagan world.” But speaking then about the one of the symbols of the Apocalypse (the scroll no one could open that drove the apostle to tears, Apoc.5:4), he adds: “Probably this cry expressed the bewilderment of the Asian churches about the silence of God in the face of persecutions they were subject to then. It is a bewilderment that could well reflect our dismay in the face of serious difficulties, misunderstandings and hostilities that the Church still suffers today in several parts of the world. They are sufferings the Church certainly does not deserve, just as Jesus himself did not merit his torment.”

Speaking off the cuff, the pope continued: The “meaning of the history of mankind”, “the destiny of history” is in the hands of Jesus Christ, who the Apocalypse reveals as the “slaughtered Lamb, defenceless, wounded, dead, but upright, alive, participating in the divine power of the Father”. “Jesus, although he was killed by an act of violence, instead of collapsing to the ground, paradoxically remains firmly on his feet, because the resurrection has definitely won over death”.

The meaning of victory over persecution was affirmed by Benedict XVI when he explained the symbol of the “Woman who delivers a male Son, and the complementary one of the Dragon who has by now fallen from the heavens. Although active in the persecution of the Woman and her other children, he has now been overcome at the core and his ultimate defeat will be unmistakably manifested. The pope continued spontaneously: “The Woman who is persecuted appears at the end like a Bride, the new Jerusalem, where there are no more tears and everything is light, because her light is the Lamb.”

“For this reason,” continued Benedict XVI, “the Apocalypse of John, although it is pervaded by continual references to suffering and tribulations – the obscure face of reality – is just as much permeated by frequent hymns of praise that sort of represent the luminous face of history... We are faced here with a typical Christian paradox, according to which suffering is never perceived as the last word, but is rather seen as a point of passage towards happiness, and even it [suffering] is already mysteriously soaked with joy that springs from hope.”

The pope ended his reflection by explaining the last words with which “the Seer of Patmos” concludes his book, the invocation, “Come Lord Jesus”, “pulsing with anxious expectation”. Here too, the pope added a reflection on impulse, saying that this waiting had three dimensions: that of the “definitive victory of the Lord who comes and transforms the world”; the “Eucharistic, of now, in which He anticipates his final coming”; the eschatological, in which the Church says: You have already come, it is a joy for us, but come fully And nearly as if to express the impatience of this wait, Benedict XVI ended with a prayer: “Come Lord Jesus, come and transform the world, and may your Peace triumph. Amen.”

At the end of the audience, the pope greeted all the pilgrims in different languages. Speaking in English, he greeted a group of priests from Taiwan and members of St Mary’s Hospital of Luodong (Taiwan) as well as youth from Nanzan University of Nagoya (Japan).



#2 stbernardLT Posted 23 August 2006 - 05:17 PM

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So whatt is your point. The pope has more authority then you. Unless of course your God.

#3 Aloysius Posted 23 August 2006 - 06:17 PM

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Nowhere did the pope exclude the fact that the end times are predicted in the bible. That they also referred to the events at the time it was written is hardly a contestable fact by any honest intellectual: they parallel precisely everything that happened to first century Christians and how Rome was taken down and the Church of God began to reign. This is in-depth scripture with multiple meanings. It refers to events in the first century church, events throughout the entire history of the Church, and ultimately prophesies about the End of Time.

The point is: the book of revelations has a lesson for Christians of every age. Likely why Christians of every age have gone into histeria over what they were sure was the final fulfillment of these prophecies: this is the way history goes for Christians until the final culmination comes at the end of time.

His insights about suffering are great, why did you highlight them? What is wrong with them? Is not the final result of the end times something glorious and good with abundant joy throughout heaven and earth?

#4 Franimus Posted 23 August 2006 - 06:24 PM

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Given your high degree in theology, I presume you know that Peter also thought that the end of the world would happen by the time all the apostles were dead?

#5 Eutychus Posted 23 August 2006 - 07:22 PM

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So whatt is your point. The pope has more authority then you.


One would expect a man CLAIMING that authority to understand the bible better than a first year bible college student then.

Amillenialism went out the day that Israel was made a REALITY on earth. Of course, that happened in 1948, but it took the Vatican till 1994 to recognize that they were dead wrong and that they were NOT the New Jews....rather embarrasing that one.

Of course, true prophecy students know the worst exegesis of scripture inthe area of prophecy comes from the sacerdotalists. They have been wrong forever, and lately are just playing a very poor job of playing catchup with the evangelicals and pentecostals.

Given your high degree in theology, I presume you know that Peter also thought that the end of the world would happen by the time all the apostles were dead?


Which is EXACTLY what Jesus wanted when He refused to tell the time of the end. That was for two reasons, ONE, not to give Satan an opportunity to plan effectively, and TWO to keep each generation waiting and in anticipation of the return.

HOWEVER, the regathering into Israel is a special event, that set a clock in motion, and the later restoration of a united Jerusalem in 1967 was a second one time trigger event.

His insights about suffering are great, why did you highlight them? What is wrong with them? Is not the final result of the end times something glorious and good with abundant joy throughout heaven and earth?


Read Revelation. The "real church" is gone after Rev 4, and does not show up till Rev 19 when it returns with Jesus from the clouds. IF you are here, and IF you are suffering then, you are not in the saved, you are here and having the WRATH of God stored up in Bowls being poured out upon you. The "real church" is removed for that time.

Edited by Eutychus, 23 August 2006 - 07:26 PM.


#6 Aloysius Posted 23 August 2006 - 07:35 PM

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The modern nation-state of israel is in no way, shape, or form the same thing as the ancient tribe of israel and if it were dismantled tomarrow I wouldn't shed one Christian tear: the Church of God is the New Israel.

nowhere does it indicate in the Bible that Christians will be preserved from any torment going on on earth in the end times. I've read revelations inside and out numerous times: show me which bible verse leads you to think this?

#7 michaelismycn Posted 23 August 2006 - 08:03 PM

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Which is EXACTLY what Jesus wanted when He refused to tell the time of the end. That was for two reasons, ONE, not to give Satan an opportunity to plan effectively, and TWO to keep each generation waiting and in anticipation of the return.



You know, I had to laugh when I saw your first reason. I'm sorry. I mean, seriously, why would God be worried about the devil knowing when God is going to kick his butt?? Isn't He all powerful? No amount of planning will save the devil from destruction and the eternal fire. However, I do agree with your second assumption, that is to keep all disciples on their toes.

#8 Jesuspaidtheprice Posted 24 August 2006 - 08:43 AM

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Eisegesis? You're joking right? I'm assuming your basing this "How did he get a theology degree" on an actually study of the works of Benedict? You've read some of his writings haven't you? I mean you must have read at least "Introduction to Christianity" or perhaps "Called to Communion" maybe Daughter Zion or his work on eschatology (since that is what you intend to bash here). Many non-Catholic theologians read the works of Ratzinger even if they don't fully agree with everything (as no theologians agree on everything). Ratzinger is an excellent exegete par none, Catholic or not. While many Catholic theologians have been jaded in the past 80 years by modernism and the historical critical method, Ratzinger has done some great work.

I see nothing entirely off about Ratzingers writing here though. He speaks of the suffering of Christians and the joy that is found through that suffering in these times through which we sojourn in a strange land by the grace that flows through our sufferings, and how ultimately we will find rest and comfort in heaven. He makes a point to connect the Old Testament Passover to the Paschal sacrifice of the Christ, and how the Christ appears as slain in Revelation. As the holy week liturgy states quite rightly "Oh happy fault" on which our salvation hinges.

I would comment more on his speech, but you would need to be familiar with the wider context in which the Catholic pontiff is speaking.

#9 thessalonian Posted 24 August 2006 - 04:07 PM

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Actually there are no gaurantees a Pope is the best exegete in the Church. Ratzinger does happen to be up there but many were not. This proves out God's hand in the Church as well, as the worst of the popes did not propogate errors to the faith. Pick a very sinful pope or one who was a poor theologian and tell me the errors/changes that they injected in to the Catholic faith. FIND ONE!

Edited by thessalonian, 24 August 2006 - 04:07 PM.





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