Young Priests Push For Pre-vat2 Customs

[SJP]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1299572' date='Jun 21 2007, 05:56 PM']i apologize for closing this thread prematurely.

i just beg of everyone to keep charity and the phorum guidelines in mind. every time we have a thread about traditionalists, orthodox catholics, catholics and liberals, we end up tearing each other down. my morale gets low every time i read these threads. honestly, i hate them.

p.s. john a, welcome to phatmass. my intention was not to make you feel unwelcome. i hope you stick around.[/quote]


Well thanks Lil Red,

I appreciate the fact that you decided to re-open the thread. I agree with you, nothing good comes from tearing one another down NOTHING!! I can't believe how un-charitable some can be when it comes to traditional issues (on both sides).

All the more reason that we need to be capable of having mature discussions about controversial topics.

Let's have phatmass be a light!

PAX

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1299572' date='Jun 21 2007, 05:56 PM']i apologize for closing this thread prematurely.

i just beg of everyone to keep charity and the phorum guidelines in mind. every time we have a thread about traditionalists, orthodox catholics, catholics and liberals, we end up tearing each other down. my morale gets low every time i read these threads. honestly, i hate them.

p.s. john a, welcome to phatmass. my intention was not to make you feel unwelcome. i hope you stick around.[/quote]

I feel the same way.

John, welcome! Thank you for sharing your experiences. My mom and younger siblings also drive about an hour to attend the nearest TLM (I don't because I live in Korea ATM, but I did on occasion when I was living there, though usually other circumstances required me to attend the closer NO Mass instead). My 3 youngest brothers serve almost every Sunday.

My mom has found a great way of participating in both our home NO parish and the TLM parish: she attends Mass and supports the TLM through tithing as much as possible, but she also tries to make her home parish better by assisting in the start and coordination (to be sure she was the front runner in getting it started) of Nocturnal Adoration, etc. (tithing there as well). She attends the parish life meetings (I think thats what they call them...) that deal with the parish's devotions and resources (Bible studies, Adoration, etc.). She is able to bring traditional values into the setting where the might not be present otherwise (she's not alone, though, there are others who are like-minded, so I guess "might not be present" isn't wholly accurate). Anyway, I'm a big fan of my mother's approach! I am all for widespread use of the TLM, but I don't think we can do so at the risk of abandoning our home parishes just because we don't like something they do (in my opinion that is divisive and does not work to bring us together as better and stronger Catholics). If we're not going to work to make them better they never will be!

[Lil Red]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1299635' date='Jun 21 2007, 06:45 PM']If we're not going to work to make them better they never will be![/quote]
precisely. and if we don't educate our phellow parishioners, priests and deacons, who will

[kateri05]

holy cow you live in korea. your amazingness grows everyday.


that being said, i really and truly agree with red and icey.

[Ash Wednesday]

I can't say I blame Red for the weariness when arguments come up in threads like this. When you're an old school phatmasser, after a while you read the same arguing back and forth (just among different people... it rotates) after so many years and after a while you find yourself mumbling, "Rocks fall. People die."

P.S. Ice and her mom are both totally amazing.

Edited June 22, 2007 by Ash Wednesday

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='kateri05' post='1299732' date='Jun 22 2007, 02:46 AM']holy cow you live in korea. your amazingness grows everyday.
that being said, i really and truly agree with red and icey.[/quote]

Yeah, Matt is in the Army and has been stationed here for a year (about another year, maybe 2, to go), we've (the girls and I) been here a month. Its really cool. Apparently when people hear you say "I live in Korea" they imagine you living in a mud hut on the outskirts of a rice paddy. We live in a city. lol

Ash, you're makin' me blush.

[KnightofChrist]

Cool, thanks for reopening this

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1299750' date='Jun 22 2007, 01:14 AM']I can't say I blame Red for the weariness when arguments come up in threads like this. When you're an old school phatmasser, after a while you read the same arguing back and forth (just among different people... it rotates) after so many years and after a while you find yourself mumbling, "Rocks fall. People die."

P.S. Ice and her mom are both totally amazing. [/quote]
pretty much

p.s. i definitely agree.

[Luthien]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1299750' date='Jun 22 2007, 05:14 AM']I can't say I blame Red for the weariness when arguments come up in threads like this. When you're an old school phatmasser, after a while you read the same arguing back and forth (just among different people... it rotates) after so many years and after a while you find yourself mumbling, "Rocks fall. People die."

P.S. Ice and her mom are both totally amazing. [/quote]

Ash, I agree that it does get tiresome, I have been here since 2004, so Ive seen my share of these type of discussions.

But, its not always the same people. If it was the same person over and over again I'd say, yeah close the thread(I too can only take so much "NO is invalid"). But PhatMass has grown so much, there are many new people here now. This means new discussions, about the saaaame thing. Its bound to happen. I guess my point is, unless the discussion is hostile, lets let it go on, and see what comes of it until hostility(if it ever occurs) develops.

PS. Thanks a bunch Lil Red for reopening this thread.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1299635' date='Jun 21 2007, 07:45 PM'] I feel the same way.

John, welcome! Thank you for sharing your experiences. My mom and younger siblings also drive about an hour to attend the nearest TLM (I don't because I live in Korea ATM, but I did on occasion when I was living there, though usually other circumstances required me to attend the closer NO Mass instead). My 3 youngest brothers serve almost every Sunday.

My mom has found a great way of participating in both our home NO parish and the TLM parish: she attends Mass and supports the TLM through tithing as much as possible, but she also tries to make her home parish better by assisting in the start and coordination (to be sure she was the front runner in getting it started) of Nocturnal Adoration, etc. (tithing there as well). She attends the parish life meetings (I think thats what they call them...) that deal with the parish's devotions and resources (Bible studies, Adoration, etc.). She is able to bring traditional values into the setting where the might not be present otherwise (she's not alone, though, there are others who are like-minded, so I guess "might not be present" isn't wholly accurate). Anyway, I'm a big fan of my mother's approach! I am all for widespread use of the TLM, but I don't think we can do so at the risk of abandoning our home parishes just because we don't like something they do (in my opinion that is divisive and does not work to bring us together as better and stronger Catholics). If we're not going to work to make them better they never will be![/quote]
This is exactly the type of approach I would advocate.

My problem is not with TLM in and of itself. It's with the fact that people abandon their home parishes. An approach like this, I can totally respect.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1299952' date='Jun 22 2007, 05:10 PM']This is exactly the type of approach I would advocate.

My problem is not with TLM in and of itself. It's with the fact that people abandon their home parishes. An approach like this, I can totally respect.[/quote]
I would say that the reasons for abandoning a parish are important. A clear cut extreme example might help make my point.

If a family decided to abandon their home parish because it was extremely heterodox and they didn't want their children to be exposed to that sort of thing I would see that as a sad but noble necessity.

The first parish I attended as a Catholic (closest to my house at the time) frequently involved pro-contraception, anti-magisterium homilies (and even worse things that I need not mention). I could not with a clear conscience subject my children to that kind of parish life and to be honest I feel no obligation to subject myself to something like that; especially when I can drive an extra twenty minutes and participate in truly edifying and orthodox parish life.

This is admittedly an extreme example, but I think the principle can be applied broadly. Ultimately I think it is a matter of personal discernment and the simple fact that Catholics today are often faced with these kind choices is the real bummer.

I would even go further and say that there can be situations in which "abandoning" a certain parish becomes a moral imperative. If it is a danger to your soul and the souls entrusted to your care it would be reckless and presumptuous to insist on frequenting said parish.

However, I agree that if one discerns a call to suffer the deficiencies of a parish and work toward making it better this is a tremendously valuable thing that ought not be disparaged. I just don't believe in a clear cut rule since these matters depend on the specifics of the situation and the people involved.

[IcePrincessKRS]

I don't disagree, LD, especially in the extreme cases. But I DO believe that one must make a real and sincere effort to make a difference before they leave entirely (such as my mother is doing). I know that there will be times where thats not possible, but I do think that it can stand as a general rule for the majority of people. I have seen so many people say "I don't like..." and leave without putting forth any effort to change their home parish for the better (and this includes leaving one NO parish for another NO parish, not just TLM). I can understand if a person believes that staying would be spiritually detrimental to themselves and/or their children, but even a letter to the pastor would be [i]something[/i] and there are a lot of people out there who don't do anything at all. (You're right, that fact that people have to face these choices IS a real bummer.)

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1299974' date='Jun 22 2007, 06:32 PM']I don't disagree, LD, especially in the extreme cases. But I DO believe that one must make a real and sincere effort to make a difference before they leave entirely (such as my mother is doing). I know that there will be times where thats not possible, but I do think that it can stand as a general rule for the majority of people. I have seen so many people say "I don't like..." and leave without putting forth any effort to change their home parish for the better (and this includes leaving one NO parish for another NO parish, not just TLM). I can understand if a person believes that staying would be spiritually detrimental to themselves and/or their children, but even a letter to the pastor would be [i]something[/i] and there are a lot of people out there who don't do anything at all. (You're right, that fact that people have to face these choices IS a real bummer.)[/quote]
My concern is to maintain a position that is inclusive enough to allow for the innumerable scenarios that could exist rather than insisting precisely what one ought or ought not to do in these kinds of situations.

In some particular situations the act of leaving the parish could constitute an appropriate witness. I disagree with the attitude that equates leaving a parish with some kind of cowardice or apathy; such an act can just as well be the opposite of these things. Quite often there is sacrifice and great inconvenience involved in switching parishes. I don’t think it is fair to default to a position which casts shame upon even those who have justly and with great sacrifice been forced to make this kind of decision.

I have heard of real-life scenarios in which people were marginalized, ridiculed and more or less abused at their home parish for resisting heterodox views and liturgical abuses. According to the Church the hoi polloi in the pews bear a right to proper Catholic worship and teaching and I don't think that the choice to endure a miserable parish life can be considered other than an extraordinary route that some may choose—much props to them—but it is hardly a general obligation.

Please don't take this post as a disagreement—I agree wholeheartedly with your central point.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[KnightofChrist]

This reminds me of the story of a king who was at mass when on of his subjects came rushing in to tell him of a miracle in another parish where the Christ child had appeared. His response was something like "Christ is truly present here as well in the Eucharist, no need to go there."

This is why I love with all my heart both masses when not abused, as Fulton Sheen wrote in This is The Mass, "We change our clothes, but our personalities remain. Liturgy changes, but the Mass is the same."

It is only when one form of the mass is abused to such a level it becomes very difficult to worship Christ, that one feels the great need to find a parish that does not abuse the mass. When letters of charity are over looked, and talks of charity and concern to the head pastor are shrugged off as oh don't worry. It becomes necessary to seek out a parish that does have chatter, kids running round, or worse.

But yes, Ice is right, if you believe Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. Then you should not give up so easily on His parish there. Only when the abuse is to such a level, and your concern is overlooked should you wipe your feet of that people.