rkwright Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 [quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1673120' date='Oct 8 2008, 11:30 PM']And what kind of judges will McCain appoint? McCain is a champion of anti-free speech "campaign reform" legislation. We know this because that legislation has his name on it. McCain will appoint liberal judges to protect that legislation and other legislation like it (think "Fairness Doctrine").[/quote] You have any support for these claims? Since when did free speech become more important than pro-life judges? And find some anti-free speech judges out there that are even possible to be nominated... The National Right to Life committee says McCain is pro-life. Good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 [quote name='flip' post='1673163' date='Oct 9 2008, 01:37 AM']wait. hold on - does this mean that voting for McCain is just as much of a sin as voting for Obama?[/quote] Is it *as much of a sin* as voting for Obama? I think so---for me it is. I am sure that the "lesser of two evils" argument can still be made because Obama is more explicit in his support of abortion. And of course, look at who they need to address when asking for votes. So, I am sure it's debatable. Although it's a crappy debate in my opinion. McCain still blows it on 4 of the 5. And at some point we have to say that so-called "lesser of two evils" is still too evil. If we cannot say enough is enough with two candidates that can't even satisfy 3 of the 5 criteria on life, let alone 4... we'll compromise on anything. Not me. And I suspect, a lot of others are not going along with it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamiller42 Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 [quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1672805' date='Oct 8 2008, 04:22 PM']McCain says that he doesn't support homosexual marriage, but he voted against the defense of marriage act. By supporting embryonic research, McCain also supports cloning---much of that legislation that McCain supports legalizes cloning to create the humans in a lab order to experiment on them. As for abortion, Sen Santorum grew frustrated at McCain because "no one worked harder" than McCain to block pro-life legislation from reaching a vote. And even then, McCain said in an interview with Don Imus that he only publicly voted in favor of much of that legislation (when he had to vote on it) because that is the only way to get many of his "otherwise intelligent" people to re-elect him.[/quote] McCain voted against the defense of marriage act because he is heavily a federalist. It's the state' domain in his mind. He says so on his site. [quote]As with most issues vital to the preservation and health of civil society, the basic responsibility for preserving and strengthening the family should reside at the level of government closest to the people. In their wisdom, the Founding Fathers reserved for the States the authority and responsibility to protect and strengthen the vital institutions of our civil society. [url="http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/issues/95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm"]Source[/url][/quote] He believes marriage is between a man and woman and would defend any local or state community that defines it so. Would you rather a president like Obama would claim the local and state governments have overstepped their authority and declare an illegal civil rights issue? In regards to cloning and embryonic stem cells... [quote]For this reason, [b]John McCain opposes the intentional creation of human embryos for research purposes. To that end, Senator McCain voted to ban the practice of "fetal farming," making it a federal crime for researchers to use cells or fetal tissue from an embryo created for research purposes[/b]. Furthermore, he voted to ban attempts to use or obtain human cells gestated in animals. Finally,[b] John McCain strongly opposes human cloning and voted to ban the practice, and any related experimentation, under federal law[/b]. As president, John McCain will strongly support funding for promising research programs, including amniotic fluid and adult stem cell research and other types of scientific study that do not involve the use of human embryos.[/quote] I think he has evolved his opinion on this based on the success of methods not requiring the destruction of embryos. This is a case where technology has removed the moral dilemma. McCain might not be the perfect pro-life candidate, but he is Mother Theresa compared to the alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 [quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1673022' date='Oct 9 2008, 02:42 AM']This is my first time voting from overseas. It will be interesting. I've been contemplating voting third party for quite some time now. Not just because of moral issues but many other issues manifesting themselves with our current economic problems. I feel that both parties are failing us on so many levels, and that it is going to take radical change and more political options across the boards rather than just our current anemic two-party system. I still haven't decided what I am going to do.[/quote] I'm totally with you (first time for me to vote from overseas, too). I keep going back and forth between voting for McCain or a 3rd party, and I think I'm leaning 3rd party. [quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1673151' date='Oct 9 2008, 06:27 AM']Boo-ya! Sa-weet! Who's it going to be? Bob Barr? Chuck Baldwin? Someone else? Or do you need to think on it?[/quote] I'm honestly thinking of Bob Barr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 [quote name='philothea' post='1673136' date='Oct 8 2008, 11:56 PM']You know, it just occurred to me (duh) that I'm absolutely not in a swing state. I can vote for a third party without worrying about causing a "worse" candidate to get elected.[/quote] I'm in the same situation as you -- my state of Washington always goes Democrat. I've never done any Republican presidential candidates any favors by voting for them. If I lived in a swing state like Florida or Ohio, I would be less likely to consider voting 3rd party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeology cat Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 [quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1673244' date='Oct 9 2008, 09:10 AM']I'm in the same situation as you -- my state of Washington always goes Democrat. I've never done any Republican presidential candidates any favors by voting for them. If I lived in a swing state like Florida or Ohio, I would be less likely to consider voting 3rd party.[/quote] That's my problem: my vote counts for FL. If I don't vote for a 3rd party, that will be the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 [quote name='kamiller42' post='1673224' date='Oct 9 2008, 01:58 AM']McCain might not be the perfect pro-life candidate, but he is Mother Theresa compared to the alternative.[/quote] It's Mother Teresa, actually. (Still amazed that people spell her name wrong even after she was one of the most famous people in the world for 4 decades) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 [quote name='rkwright' post='1673191' date='Oct 9 2008, 01:05 AM']The National Right to Life committee says McCain is pro-life. Good enough for me.[/quote] Well, the NRTL is wrong. Apparently, they just take McCain at his word and ignore his actual record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 [quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1673124' date='Oct 8 2008, 11:37 PM']That list of non-negotiables spells out the human life issue. Because if a candidate doesn't recognize that good, than all the others (family life, social justice) are empty matters and don't mean a thing.[/quote] It reminds me of '92 when Clinton won office. There was this Catholic I knew--generally, I would say he was pretty staunch, and he was definitely pro-life. I can never forget his response to my shocked and appalled reaction when he told me he was voting for Clinton: "I know he's pro-choice, but I just think his plans for the economy are better." I was still in my teens--or just past teens at the time--and I was smart enough to know that this didn't add up. How can economy trump the basic right to live? What good is a strong economy when our nation is allowing the killings of millions of its citizens annually? And, even more frightening to think of, can a nation who allows this ever be truly blessed? Ever since abortion became legal our country has sunk deeper and deeper into moral decay and it's only getting worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 [quote name='rkwright' post='1673010' date='Oct 8 2008, 08:28 PM']Here is how I see it... McCain may have some flaws in stem cell research and cloning.[/quote] Flaws?? Is that what we call the destruction and abomination of life now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 So help me please, ...who should a devout Catholic vote for? Who fills all the Catholic qualifications? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1673271' date='Oct 9 2008, 07:25 AM']Flaws?? Is that what we call the destruction and abomination of life now?[/quote] First off you really should read the rest of my post. Second, I didn't say cloning was a flaw. I said John McCain's view on cloning was a flaw. Please don't twist words around; this is a serious issue and deserves thorough attention. [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1673287' date='Oct 9 2008, 08:05 AM']So help me please, ...who should a devout Catholic vote for? Who fills all the Catholic qualifications?[/quote] If you look in this election section, maybe on page 15-16 there is a long thread called 'who can a Catholic vote for'. Many of the same arguments are present there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrockthefirst Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1673287' date='Oct 9 2008, 08:05 AM']So help me please, ...who should a devout Catholic vote for? Who fills all the Catholic qualifications?[/quote] Neither of the major party candidates. That's why we HAVE to vote third party. Go Ron Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 That is not the only option faithful Catholics have. There is no necessity in voting 3rd party; even Lounge Daddy has admitted as much. A big discussion on this exact topic, for those who are struggling with this: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=77200"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=77200[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrockthefirst Posted October 9, 2008 Share Posted October 9, 2008 [quote name='rkwright' post='1673298' date='Oct 9 2008, 10:15 AM']That is not the only option faithful Catholics have. There is no necessity in voting 3rd party; even Lounge Daddy has admitted as much. A big discussion on this exact topic, for those who are struggling with this: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=77200"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=77200[/url][/quote] Well, I beg to differ. We'll all have to vote our consciences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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