Motu Proprio Obstruction

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1675533' date='Oct 12 2008, 05:50 PM']As much as it gets slated, believe it or not the current (not solely liturgical) Catholic situation here in the Netherlands is much, much better than twenty years ago.[/quote]

True! True! True!

That was just me... wishing there was a way to go to Mass before classes start.

[mortify]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1675500' date='Oct 12 2008, 03:36 AM']I think (and I believe Fr. Z.'s blogged similarly) that many who are attached to the EF and who desire to see it more widely available simply need to practice more patience. The Moto Proprio on its own, whilst magnificent and very generous, cannot undo the accumulated mindset of the past few decades in one fell swoop. It needs patience, gentleness and prayer - as much if not more from our part (gosh, am I counting myself as one of them? I suppose I am) as from the Pope's.[/quote]

I suppose as much gentleness and patience should be taken as was in the 1960's when we undid mindsets and disciplines that were nearly 2,000 years old. Personally I'm in no rush, I'm happy to say numerous Latin Masses on the diocese level have sprouted in my area, I just don't understand the caution in reversing disciplines that are barely a half a century old.


VeniteAdoremus said,
[quote]The Motu Proprio has had no. impact. at. all in my country. That is, we do have a bunch of FSSP priests who are now getting a personal parish, but in the "normal" parish and diocese life, nobody is interested.[/quote]

I don't know the situation in your country but in America the average person in the pew is pretty ignorant. I can't expect them to desire what they don't know. Those that are aware masses were in Latin probably think it's just the Novus Ordo missal said in Latin.

It will take time but the seeds will eventually sprout.

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='mortify' post='1675625' date='Oct 12 2008, 10:06 PM']I suppose as much gentleness and patience should be taken as was in the 1960's when we undid mindsets and disciplines that were nearly 2,000 years old.[/quote]

I disagree with this. As a personal opinion, I think the way the NO Missal was introduced was rough, forceful and unkind, but that does not justify the same attitude being taken in trying to undo that harm (that harm being the roughness, the forcefulness, the unkindness and the abuses, not necessarily the NO itself).

[mortify]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1675640' date='Oct 12 2008, 02:35 PM']I disagree with this. As a personal opinion, I think the way the NO Missal was introduced was rough, forceful and unkind, but that does not justify the same attitude being taken in trying to undo that harm (that harm being the roughness, the forcefulness, the unkindness and the abuses, not necessarily the NO itself).[/quote]

I just mean we shouldn't be surprised if traditional Catholics want to restore things as quickly and forcefully as they were taken away.

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='mortify' post='1675670' date='Oct 12 2008, 11:28 PM']I just mean we shouldn't be surprised if traditional Catholics want to restore things as quickly and forcefully as they were taken away.[/quote]

Perhaps not surprised, but we should in no way condone it.

[mortify]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1675686' date='Oct 12 2008, 04:44 PM']Perhaps not surprised, but we should in no way condone it.[/quote]

Considering the opposition to the old Roman ordo, "force" may be the only solution. By force I simply mean the personal objections certain bishops may hold will have to be set aside to fulfill the wishes of the Holy Father.

[philothea]

(I should probably start a new topic for this, but I don't know how this is going to go, so I'll just blab here and if someone wants to discuss it elsewhere, go for it.)

It occurred to me after reading this topic... I still haven't been to a traditional Latin mass, after 17 years of being Catholic. So... I didn't know what to think about its lack of availability.

I looked up some videos, and watched a few TLM masses, from different eras, countries, organizations, and settings. I have to say it seems a little strange to me, to have a mass where the people don't participate [i]at all[/i]. I know that sometimes the laypeople speak responses, or sing, but it looks like that is an adaptation. The more-classic form has altar servers doing the responses, and the choir doing the signing, and everyone else just observes. In the 1941 mass I watched, people didn't even use missals to follow along.

I see how you could get used to that, just praying on your own. Now I understand why that one older lady says her rosary during mass... probably just what she was used to (even if it's distracting to the rest of us, now. )

Also, I can kind of see why bishops might be hesitant to devote resources to changing current NO masses to TLM, unless there is a lot of interest made apparent. Like what Archaeology Cat said -- you can't expect a Bishop to point at a parish and say, OK, you guys are centrally located and have a good layout, switch your mass. Honestly, there are good and bad points to each style of mass, IMO, and reverently celebrated, I think I like the NO better. I mean, I loooove Latin, as a language, and would like the whole Church to say the same prayers, but having the scripture readings in Latin just seems wrong. Still will have to try one in person to see for sure.

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1675512' date='Oct 12 2008, 08:32 AM']Unfortunately until we have a generation change, I don't see an explosion of orthodoxy in the Church. The Holy Spirit is safeguarding the Magisterium with pope's like Benedict XVI, but there is too much resistance to anything connected to the word "tradition" among our elders who saw Vatican II as the council of free love and liberation from "the man" - that is why they think that women are going to be ordained and homosexuals are going to be married and the hierarchy will be eliminated "with a little more time". There hasn't been one single solitary change regarding Latin Masses in our diocese and 99% of church goers couldn't even tell you that the pope released this document. I still have to drive more than an 1 1/2 to get to a Latin Mass.[/quote]

I know I haven't been around for a couple years, but I'm surprised to hear this from you. Can you explain to me why it's worth driving all that way? Are the other masses nearer to you badly done, or do you see something actually wrong with the NO?

[quote name='mortify' post='1675625' date='Oct 12 2008, 03:06 PM']I suppose as much gentleness and patience should be taken as was in the 1960's when we undid mindsets and disciplines that were nearly 2,000 years old. Personally I'm in no rush, I'm happy to say numerous Latin Masses on the diocese level have sprouted in my area, I just don't understand the caution in reversing disciplines that are barely a half a century old.[/quote]

I think there is a serious chance of alienating people. I know, I know, a lot of people were alienated already. But the direction of change matters. Vatican II said, "Here, look, you all are important too. We want you to participate." While maybe some people [i]didn't[/i] want to have to participate like that, pulling the option away from them to, "No, just be quiet and watch" would devastate a lot of ordinary Catholics, including many of the ones who actually keep the parishes running. They want to hold hands and sing and be part of the celebration.

Though, I sure would appreciate a mass where no one is going to try to grab my hand!

There's got to be a middle ground. It'll be nice to get there someday...

Edited October 13, 2008 by philothea

[CatherineM]

You've made the main point in why I have no desire to return to the Latin mass. I like participating, and feeling a part of the liturgy rather than just being a witness. I would learn to live with being a silent witness, but the conflict this will bring would make me sad.

[geetarplayer]

It isn't just liberal bishops who are restricting the EF. I know of a very outspoken conservative bishop who has made it very hard for priests in the diocese to learn the TLM, and makes it known that he doesn't like that form of the rite, although it was the form under which he was ordained.

[VeniteAdoremus]

I think the question of participation is a very personal one. I understand that people like the NO better because of the responses and the singing (if there isn't a choir singing in harmony*). It put me off the TLM at first, too, and it was why I wanted to be an altar server. You can skip to the last two paragraphs now

But I've been to a few TLMs, and it changed me. Both how I attend the TLM and how I attend the NO (and I don't want to be a server anymore!). When I said the responses in the NO Mass, it was more an acknowledgement than a prayer. I'm sure other people manage to say "Thanks be to God" prayerfully after every reading, but I don't. I just kick into Response Mode and somewhere out of my 15 years of going to Mass the answer just pops up, without thought, like answering "Fine, thanks" after people ask how I'm doing (and after that I realise that, no, I have a splitting headache, three deadlines and a hole in my left sock!).

With the TLM it's different. After a few times you've got a pretty good idea what's going on, even if you don't know the exact wording the priest uses (and my dad gave me his children's missal, not his adult missal, so I don't even [i]have[/i] all the words... nice pictures, though ). And what you do then is, indeed, pray. And observe. Some people use the Rosary, I usually don't - it depends on what you like, I guess (diversity yay!).

At the beginning of Mass, I pray for the priest and the servers. The Kyrie and Gloria are usually response-based, so then I sing along (careful not to do the choir parts out of habit). We're lucky to have the readings in Dutch after they're done in Latin, so that's easy to follow along. At the Offertory, I try to offer whatever I've brought along spiritually or mentally. The Consecration and Communion are emotional rollercoaster - and personal time. That's how I participate at the TLM. And believe me, God is getting a lot more attention from me (and chattering, and whining) than He used to get during a NO.

It has seeped into my NO attendance, too, by the way. To the point that if the priest says "Let us pray" after Communion I think "I was [i]doing[/i] that, and you're [i]interrupting[/i] me!" I think it's rather rude of him, really

So. Wow, long post. What I meant to say: for me, there's more participation in the TLM. But I get that it's not for everyone. I thought it wouldn't be for me (even after the first time I went there). And I hear the same thing from others. So just give it a try a couple of times - it might really enrich your Mass, even if you then decide to just stay in your regular parish (like I do, except for special occasions).

And re: "changing" the Mass in a central parish: what we've done here is just adding one after the regular Sunday Mass. So the NO at 10AM, and the TLM at 12. Which also helps people who're coming from Far Far Away. Everybody happy!





*where with "harmony" I mean singing in several distinct parts which make parish participation more difficult and/or unwanted - I'm not referring to either the style of music or the perceived result of the choir's efforts, which don't have to be harmonic at all, even though that was the idea from which they started out, not to bash any parish choirs in specific or generally, just to cover all the bases, and yes I will shut up now.

[Guest albertjazz]

In the diocese of East Anglia England,and the Cathedral Church of St.John the Baptist (formerly my parish church until 1976) The Bishop and Clergy drag their heels and provide every obsruction to having the Tridentine Mass celebrated,in fact not a single Mass has taken place yet.
At the time of the Second Vatican Council,both me and my family were told,to not attend the Norvo Ordo if we didnt likethe reforms and liturgical abuses,that were taking place,to stay away so to allow "enlightened" parishoners free reign.
This attitude still prevails to this day.
The untold damage these priests have caused,must be immense,yet they still hold,although vocations to the religious life are at an all time low,that young people are leaving the church in droves,that all will be well in time with the reforms proving successful.
Its painfull to see our Bishop,during uninspirational services parading around witn a benign smile of benevolence on his face,while all around for the most part,you see boredom,and lack of reverence on the faces of those present.
I pray in earnest that all will change

[puellapaschalis]

@VA: YEAAAAAAH!

[Ash Wednesday]

So....was there supposed to be an explosion of Latin Masses available within 365 days after the Motu Proprio? Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't recall change as being something that always swiftly took place within the ranks of the Church. No doubt the results of the Council did take place at a freakishly quick pace, though more than a year -- in such a case it's much easier to suddenly go from a more complex mass to a simplified mass that's in your native tongue. To go back the other way around, well that's going to take some time. I see it as something that will grow, though slowly. I live in the southeast area of England and there seems to be growing interest in traditional masses. The church I recently married at has a group of relatively young priests, all highly traditional and orthodox and is a place where the Old Rite is regularly said. It's a sharp contrast to our local parish priest who is old and retiring in a couple of years. He was ordained in the 60s, loved the Beatles, called John Paul II a "fascist" and Benedict "autocratic".

I think it's hard to believe that the boomer generation is actually part of an "old guard" but it's true. A lot of people in charge are probably feeling their age and used to doing things a certain way. "I don't want to deal with this new Latin fad! Now get off my lawn!"

Someone call me after they all retire and then we'll talk.

Edited October 13, 2008 by Ash Wednesday

[Archaeology cat]

Very good points, Ash, and kinda what I was trying to explain about my diocese. Our bishop is working on it, but it takes time. And of course, he has to make sure there are priests who know how to celebrate the TLM.

[melporcristo]

JMJ

funny enough, I was just going to post about this.

i've been talking to people where I live about this whole TLM and NO thing. Back where I live we only have the Latin Mass once a month but when the Motu Propio kicked into gear, the people in my parish really took advantage and now they're getting many people interested.

8 hours from where I live and where I'm recently teaching, we have a Latin mass 3 hrs away, which we've gone to twice already. I love going to the High Mass and yesterday's homily was awesome.

I have a question tho - and something I wish to see change - why are the readings different and the Liturgical Calendar different with the Latin Mass? I wish it was the same as what the Universal Church is reading on Sundays and we were all celebrating the same feast days.