Lilllabettt Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Forget evil. Skinny jeans are just plain ugly. There. I said it. Ugly. I am surrounded by co-eds, all wearing skinny jeans and I have yet to find a person that doesn't look ridiculous wearing them. If anyone reading this is thinking about pulling on a pair of skinny jeans today, just say no. It matters not if your shirt sufficiently covers your butt or not. Likewise if you are considering substituting a pair of leggings for pants. I don't care if you saw it in Vogue. It's ugly. If anyone reading this is currently wearing skinny jeans, try to avoid cameras. If you are photographed looking like that, posterity will mock you. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='TotusTuusMaria' date='12 November 2009 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1258010159' post='2001197'] Surprisingly ( ) I don't agree. I really good friend of mine is very fashionable, and her favorite jean is a skinny jean. Beautiful girl, and when done right the jeans are very cute, however some of her skinny jeans are tight. She might as well have painted denim on, and when you are looking at her from behind your eyes (and i'm a girl without a lusting-for-girl issue) are automatically drawn to the denim stretching across her rear and thighs. You can't help but look when she is standing in front of you. I am not a guy and I don't have an issue lusting after her (me = attracted to guys) however, even [i]my[/i] eyes are drawn there. They are tight and clingy. Skinny jeans are very form-clingy. They are made that way, and it is easy to wear a size too small and have an immodest moment. Point: I am purposefully not trying to look "there," but when she is in the skinny jean that she probably should have gone a size up on I can't help but notice. So, it doesn't have to do with purposefully looking there. When someone is having a fashion blunder it is hard not to notice. Skinny jeans can't rightly be compared to high-heels. [/quote] +1 (in spirit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 07:51 AM' timestamp='1258041097' post='2001291'] The question I posed was in regards to the young woman in the photo, not skinny jeans in general. Since her sweater appears long enough to cover her backside and thighs, the eyes will not immediately be drawn there unless the man is purposefully trying to get a glimpse. Again, her butt is [u]covered[/u]. [/quote] I'm sorry but that's complete speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='Slappo' date='12 November 2009 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1258050707' post='2001361'] I'm sorry but that's complete speculation. [/quote] Exactly. None of us--guys or girls--have any way of knowing how somebody will react to a certain outfit. That said, I still think that a long shirt would solve the problem of super-tight jeans, so long as the butt is covered. Slappo's position, as I understand it, is that a long shirt would solve most of the problem. So I don't see the big deal here, since the "opposing" positions are actually quite similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1258041097' post='2001291'] The question I posed was in regards to the young woman in the photo, not skinny jeans in general. Since her sweater appears long enough to cover her backside and thighs, the eyes will not immediately be drawn there unless the man is purposefully trying to get a glimpse. Again, her butt is [u]covered[/u]. [/quote] I completely disagree. It is entirely possible for a guy to accidentally look at the thighs of a woman who is dressed modestly. I don't know how much you have dealt with scrupulosity, but there are definitely guys who wrongly believe they have lusted just because they have noticed a woman. And it's possible for a guy's eyes to be inadvertently drawn to the wrong place, even if she's wearing a long skirt and a sweater. Now obviously this would not be the fault of the woman, but it wouldn't be his fault either. I am concerned because somebody may read this who struggles with scrupulosity, and draw the wrong conclusion about himself. Honestly, neither you nor anybody else on this phorum know what any given person will be tempted by. People are different. Even if I were to concede that the woman in the picture is dressed modestly (which I think she is)--guys may notice her butt anyway. And they may notice it without trying to look for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='TotusTuusMaria' date='12 November 2009 - 02:15 AM' timestamp='1258010159' post='2001197'] Surprisingly ( ) I don't agree. I really good friend of mine is very fashionable, and her favorite jean is a skinny jean. Beautiful girl, and when done right the jeans are very cute, however some of her skinny jeans are tight. She might as well have painted denim on, and when you are looking at her from behind your eyes (and i'm a girl without a lusting-for-girl issue) are automatically drawn to the denim stretching across her rear and thighs. You can't help but look when she is standing in front of you. I am not a guy and I don't have an issue lusting after her (me = attracted to guys) however, even [i]my[/i] eyes are drawn there. They are tight and clingy. Skinny jeans are very form-clingy. They are made that way, and it is easy to wear a size too small and have an immodest moment. Point: I am purposefully not trying to look "there," but when she is in the skinny jean that she probably should have gone a size up on I can't help but notice. So, it doesn't have to do with purposefully looking there. When someone is having a fashion blunder it is hard not to notice. Skinny jeans can't rightly be compared to high-heels. [/quote] Good points [quote name='Lilllabettt' date='12 November 2009 - 12:59 PM' timestamp='1258048774' post='2001350'] Forget evil. Skinny jeans are just plain ugly. There. I said it. Ugly. I am surrounded by co-eds, all wearing skinny jeans and I have yet to find a person that doesn't look ridiculous wearing them. If anyone reading this is thinking about pulling on a pair of skinny jeans today, just say no. It matters not if your shirt sufficiently covers your butt or not. Likewise if you are considering substituting a pair of leggings for pants. I don't care if you saw it in Vogue. It's ugly. If anyone reading this is currently wearing skinny jeans, try to avoid cameras. If you are photographed looking like that, posterity will mock you. That is all. [/quote] Vogue... that's where they got that image Not surprising. There needs to be a different image of fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='Lilllabettt' date='12 November 2009 - 11:59 AM' timestamp='1258048774' post='2001350'] Forget evil. Skinny jeans are just plain ugly. There. I said it. Ugly. I am surrounded by co-eds, all wearing skinny jeans and I have yet to find a person that doesn't look ridiculous wearing them. If anyone reading this is thinking about pulling on a pair of skinny jeans today, just say no. It matters not if your shirt sufficiently covers your butt or not. Likewise if you are considering substituting a pair of leggings for pants. I don't care if you saw it in Vogue. It's ugly. If anyone reading this is currently wearing skinny jeans, try to avoid cameras. If you are photographed looking like that, posterity will mock you. That is all. [/quote]+J.M.J.+ agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='Slappo' date='12 November 2009 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1258050707' post='2001361'] I'm sorry but that's complete speculation. [/quote] So are you essentially saying that no matter what a woman is wearing (be it modest or immodest), a man will be drawn to look at her butt? I mean, if a long sweater is not enough to keep a man's eyes at bay, then what do you think is? [quote name='XIX' date='12 November 2009 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1258053206' post='2001372'] I completely disagree. It is entirely possible for a guy to accidentally look at the thighs of a woman who is dressed modestly. I don't know how much you have dealt with scrupulosity, but there are definitely guys who wrongly believe they have lusted just because they have noticed a woman. And it's possible for a guy's eyes to be inadvertently drawn to the wrong place, even if she's wearing a long skirt and a sweater. Now obviously this would not be the fault of the woman, but it wouldn't be his fault either. I am concerned because somebody may read this who struggles with scrupulosity, and draw the wrong conclusion about himself. Honestly, neither you nor anybody else on this phorum know what any given person will be tempted by. People are different. Even if I were to concede that the woman in the picture is dressed modestly (which I think she is)--guys may notice her butt anyway. And they may notice it without trying to look for it. [/quote] I know that if a man sees an attractive woman, his eyes will probably do a sweep of her entire body. Sometimes this is more automatic than anything else. However - in general - it is less likely that he will hone in on her butt (i.e. purposefully stare at it to lust) if her butt is appropriately covered. Similarly, it is less likely that a man will stare at a woman's chest if she is wearing a baggy t-shirt. Again, I say "less likely" because of course there are times when a woman gets negative attention from a man even if she is dressed modestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='TotusTuusMaria' date='12 November 2009 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1258010159' post='2001197'] Surprisingly ( ) I don't agree. I really good friend of mine is very fashionable, and her favorite jean is a skinny jean. Beautiful girl, and when done right the jeans are very cute, however some of her skinny jeans are tight. She might as well have painted denim on, and when you are looking at her from behind your eyes (and i'm a girl without a lusting-for-girl issue) are automatically drawn to the denim stretching across her rear and thighs. You can't help but look when she is standing in front of you. I am not a guy and I don't have an issue lusting after her (me = attracted to guys) however, even [i]my[/i] eyes are drawn there. They are tight and clingy. Skinny jeans are very form-clingy. They are made that way, and it is easy to wear a size too small and have an immodest moment. Point: I am purposefully not trying to look "there," but when she is in the skinny jean that she probably should have gone a size up on I can't help but notice. So, it doesn't have to do with purposefully looking there. When someone is having a fashion blunder it is hard not to notice. Skinny jeans can't rightly be compared to high-heels. [/quote] How many times did TTM make it perfectly clear that no, she IS MOST DEFINITELY NOT attracted to girls in this post? Just checkin'. Do you need to tell us again? I'm not sure you got the point across. I'm kind of worried that you're lusting after your friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 As a side note, I do want to say that skinny jeans are absolutely ludicrous. They make women look disproportional or "top heavy." You know how each style of jeans is suited to a particular body type? Well I was always under the impression that skinny jeans were for tall, skinny women. Therefore, some time ago, I tried on a pair and they were not flattering at all. I even wonder why we are debating about them because if no one looks attractive in them, no one should be lusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionseeker Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1258057741' post='2001406'] So are you essentially saying that no matter what a woman is wearing (be it modest or immodest), a man will be drawn to look at her butt? I mean, if a long sweater is not enough to keep a man's eyes at bay, then what do you think is? I know that if a man sees an attractive woman, his eyes will probably do a sweep of her entire body. Sometimes this is more automatic than anything else. However - in general - it is less likely that he will hone in on her butt (i.e. purposefully stare at it to lust) if her butt is appropriately covered. Similarly, it is less likely that a man will stare at a woman's chest if she is wearing a baggy t-shirt. Again, I say "less likely" because of course there are times when a woman gets negative attention from a man even if she is dressed modestly. [/quote] idk... I usually wear t-shirts and non- t-shirts pretty evenly. The stares still come either way. I think the "less-likely" part comes from training. Which is not what generally happens. Most (or at least enough to make it seem like most) are not taught respect. They are taught to look at a girl to see what's attractive about her. One of the guys I work with (I work in the kitchen, so they are a bit of a rough edged group) told me "no matter what, I can find something I like about almost any girl that comes through here. It doesn't really matter what we wear. I'm not so sure I believe that just because we are modest, it is an assurance that fewer guys will look. I think it's an assurance that they won't see what they'd like to see. But not that they won't look. And even the ones who make a conscious effort sometimes fail. Not cuz of perversion, really, nor because we are wearing immodest stuff. Just.. cuz guys are programmed to be attracted to girls' curves. And we live in a fallen where it's hard to override the tendency to think of things in a worldly way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) Aww, I can't +1 this post. And the previous one to the above. Edited November 12, 2009 by Sacred Music Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='missionseeker' date='12 November 2009 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1258058685' post='2001419'] idk... I usually wear t-shirts and non- t-shirts pretty evenly. The stares still come either way. I think the "less-likely" part comes from training. Which is not what generally happens. Most (or at least enough to make it seem like most) are not taught respect. They are taught to look at a girl to see what's attractive about her. One of the guys I work with (I work in the kitchen, so they are a bit of a rough edged group) told me "no matter what, I can find something I like about almost any girl that comes through here. It doesn't really matter what we wear. I'm not so sure I believe that just because we are modest, it is an assurance that fewer guys will look. I think it's an assurance that they won't see what they'd like to see. But not that they won't look. And even the ones who make a conscious effort sometimes fail. Not cuz of perversion, really, nor because we are wearing immodest stuff. Just.. cuz guys are programmed to be attracted to girls' curves. And we live in a fallen where it's hard to override the tendency to think of things in a worldly way... [/quote] Exactly. In the end, men will stare and drool over women regardless of what they are wearing. In general, many Christians who are discussing modesty almost always turn the conversation into "the women have more responsibility" or perhaps "women have to try harder." However, I believe it is time for the men (men in general, not necessarily you guys on here) to realize that they have equal responsibility in the matter. The kind of responsibility varies, but the responsibility is equal nonetheless. Here are points I believe we can all agree on: - Women are expected to be more modest in dress than men are (which, to an extent, does make sense) - Just because women are expected to be more modest in dress does not mean that men can slack in this area (i.e. they have to understand that women can be visual too) - Men are expected to be more modest in thought than women are (since men ARE more visual and need to master self-control) - Just because men are expected to be more modest in thought does not mean that women can slack in this area (i.e. women must also shield their eyes, minds, and hearts from lust) The ONLY problem with that system is that there are men and women who will not follow it. Messing with the system does the following: - Men can become overly scrupulous, as XIX said (by judging themselves and yes, by judging women as well) - Women can become ashamed of their bodies ("what am I doing wrong, am I not covered enough?" etc.) - Men can feel helpless and inspired to lust, perhaps driven to view pornography - Women can feel controlled by overly scrupulous men And I am sure there are other points to be added there. Edited November 12, 2009 by HisChildForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 +J.M.J.+ i can't remember where i saw it, but there was a study done that says that because of the internet, cell phone usage, etc being 'amped up' - women/teen girls are just as likely as males now to be visually stimulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1258060677' post='2001432'] Exactly. In the end, men will stare and drool over women regardless of what they are wearing. [/quote] This is an extremely demeaning sentence towards men. I [b]know[/b] that what you mean is there will always be certain men that will stare and drool, but [b]please[/b] make it specific and not broad. At first read I was very offended and it took a second glance to understand the real meaning of the sentence. If people take the sentence in broad strokes it looks like men are savages. And we're not savages! Only sometimes . Or most of the time [quote name='HisChildForever' date='12 November 2009 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1258060677' post='2001432'] In general, many Christians who are discussing modesty almost always turn the conversation into "the women have more responsibility" or perhaps "women have to try harder." However, I believe it is time for the men (men in general, not necessarily you guys on here) to realize that they have equal responsibility in the matter. The kind of responsibility varies, but the responsibility is equal nonetheless. Here are points I believe we can all agree on: - Women are expected to be more modest in dress than men are (which, to an extent, does make sense) - Just because women are expected to be more modest in dress does not mean that men can slack in this area (i.e. they have to understand that women can be visual too) - Men are expected to be more modest in thought than women are (since men ARE more visual and need to master self-control) - Just because men are expected to be more modest in thought does not mean that women can slack in this area (i.e. women must also shield their eyes, minds, and hearts from lust) The ONLY problem with that system is that there are men and women who will not follow it. Messing with the system does the following: - Men can become overly scrupulous, as XIX said (by judging themselves and yes, by judging women as well) - Women can become ashamed of their bodies ("what am I doing wrong, am I not covered enough?" etc.) - Men can feel helpless and inspired to lust, perhaps driven to view pornography - Women can feel controlled by overly scrupulous men And I am sure there are other points to be added there. [/quote] I agree with most of this, I think one important difference is that women aren't expected to be more modest then men, nor men expected to be more modest in thought, but physical modesty for women requires more effort than it does for men, and modesty in thought for men requires more effort than for women. I think another point that could be added, which is only half related to modesty, is that men need to be very careful with being clear with women on the topic of relationships and romantic attractions. This was a big problem at FUS when I was there. Men would do nice things for women just because they were women, but men would also blur the line between just friends and romantically interested which played with a lot of women's hearts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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