Women Religious Not Complying With Vatican Study

[cappie]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='25 November 2009 - 06:45 AM' timestamp='1259095503' post='2008650']
I wonder what the questions were?
[/quote]


[url="http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:8RTT9CuE2-sJ:www.apostolicvisitation.org/en/materials/ques_BC.pdf+questionarrie+for+women+religious&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjTq9eiTqOk_p5EvhkuN2a_ECMAkc37fPdykKI_ipA-KxYfuLoOzejq01sgvuw7jxFnCxNYPYNI11znncWaExXtv7hp-pQQOG_hyg_FcY5VrbpJ3HClYGPWpN_QLN4SfXzT5-6_&sig=AHIEtbTHbvgZl5LwibD8eBJc0VbSo3G-vQ"]http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:8RTT9CuE2-sJ:www.apostolicvisitation.org/en/materials/ques_BC.pdf+questionarrie+for+women+religious&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjTq9eiTqOk_p5EvhkuN2a_ECMAkc37fPdykKI_ipA-KxYfuLoOzejq01sgvuw7jxFnCxNYPYNI11znncWaExXtv7hp-pQQOG_hyg_FcY5VrbpJ3HClYGPWpN_QLN4SfXzT5-6_&sig=AHIEtbTHbvgZl5LwibD8eBJc0VbSo3G-vQ[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

Are the questions detailed ? -yes. Are they intrusive? -no.
If you are calling yourselves Catholics and are representing the Catholic Church then you should be able to show in your words and deeds you are CATHOLIC. If you are offended by the request for imformation, maybe you should reexamine what you consider as your catholic identity, and see if you conform to the teachings of the church and not the radical feminist social work agenda adopted by so many of your compatriots. The defect is not in the church who is asking the questions but the women religious themselves.
""[color="#0000FF"]Vatican II took us out of the ghettos and into ecology, feminism and justice in the world[/color]" Mother Theresa worked in the ghettos and she had no problem with faithfulness.
[color="#0000FF"]"Women religious, she said, are asking if there is a "Ghandian or Martin Luther King way" to deal with violence they felt is being done to them." [/color]Statements like this show how far away these women have placed themselves from the Church.
These people at one point professed to be the "bride of Christ",so in some ways its a tragedy, but in other ways it will be good to know in truthfulness who is part of the problem, and who is part of the solution.

[TotusTuusMaria]

this is so sad.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='24 November 2009 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1259119442' post='2008980']
Are the questions detailed ? -yes. Are they intrusive? -no.
If you are calling yourselves Catholics and are representing the Catholic Church then you should be able to show in your words and deeds you are CATHOLIC. If you are offended by the request for imformation, maybe you should reexamine what you consider as your catholic identity, and see if you conform to the teachings of the church and not the radical feminist social work agenda adopted by so many of your compatriots. The defect is not in the church who is asking the questions but the women religious themselves.
""[color="#0000FF"]Vatican II took us out of the ghettos and into ecology, feminism and justice in the world[/color]" Mother Theresa worked in the ghettos and she had no problem with faithfulness.
[color="#0000FF"]"Women religious, she said, are asking if there is a "Ghandian or Martin Luther King way" to deal with violence they felt is being done to them." [/color]Statements like this show how far away these women have placed themselves from the Church.
These people at one point professed to be the "bride of Christ",so in some ways its a tragedy, but in other ways it will be good to know in truthfulness who is part of the problem, and who is part of the solution.
[/quote]
If they want a model of how to react to violence being done to them, they don't have to look to Gandhi or King. Jesus is the perfect model.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='25 November 2009 - 02:24 PM' timestamp='1259119442' post='2008980']
Are the questions detailed ? -yes. Are they intrusive? -no.
If you are calling yourselves Catholics and are representing the Catholic Church then you should be able to show in your words and deeds you are CATHOLIC. If you are offended by the request for imformation, maybe you should reexamine what you consider as your catholic identity, and see if you conform to the teachings of the church and not the radical feminist social work agenda adopted by so many of your compatriots. The defect is not in the church who is asking the questions but the women religious themselves.
""[color="#0000FF"]Vatican II took us out of the ghettos and into ecology, feminism and justice in the world[/color]" Mother Theresa worked in the ghettos and she had no problem with faithfulness.
[color="#0000FF"]"Women religious, she said, are asking if there is a "Ghandian or Martin Luther King way" to deal with violence they felt is being done to them." [/color]Statements like this show how far away these women have placed themselves from the Church.
These people at one point professed to be the "bride of Christ",so in some ways its a tragedy, but in other ways it will be good to know in truthfulness who is part of the problem, and who is part of the solution.
[/quote]

I've used up my +1 or I would give you one. I guess at least this way it becomes clear who still feels a part of the Church, and who doesn't. Next week here in Melbourne, Sr Joan Chittister is giving a talk, and I really wanted to go just to see if I could figure out why so many nuns are attracted to her point of view (according to the advertising for the event, "She is a frequent speaker at conventions and conferences and is a strong advocate for the equality of women in church and society." )

http://www.goodsams.org.au/html/news/story005.html

but I am doing a volunteer training course, so can't. I am very happy about this whole study and pray that it will pave the way for some much needed reform in religious life.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='25 November 2009 - 02:33 PM' timestamp='1259120018' post='2008989']
If they want a model of how to react to violence being done to them, they don't have to look to Gandhi or King. Jesus is the perfect model.
[/quote]

Another good post and no ++ to give away!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='nunsense' date='24 November 2009 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1259120044' post='2008990']
I've used up my +1 or I would give you one. I guess at least this way it becomes clear who still feels a part of the Church, and who doesn't. Next week here in Melbourne, Sr Joan Chittister is giving a talk, and I really wanted to go just to see if I could figure out why so many nuns are attracted to her point of view (according to the advertising for the event, "She is a frequent speaker at conventions and conferences and is a strong advocate for the equality of women in church and society." )

http://www.goodsams.org.au/html/news/story005.html

but I am doing a volunteer training course, so can't. I am very happy about this whole study and pray that it will pave the way for some much needed reform in religious life.
[/quote]
She appeals to the latent and sometimes blatent feminist agenda, to the appeal against the mean good old boys who keep women in their place. This works on anyone who studied feminism instead of church history in the noviciate, and who act more like social workers instead of the brides of Christ.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Now, now, how is the Vatican supposed to evaluate whether they are in line with their constitutions if the only thing they do is send in their constitutions? Silly.

I hope the Vatican suppresses all the orders that didn't comply and places the Nashville Dominicans and the Franciscan Sisters of the Martyr St. George in charge.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Raphael' date='24 November 2009 - 10:59 PM' timestamp='1259121567' post='2009012']
Now, now, how is the Vatican supposed to evaluate whether they are in line with their constitutions if the only thing they do is send in their constitutions? Silly.

I hope the Vatican suppresses all the orders that didn't comply and places the Nashville Dominicans and the Franciscan Sisters of the Martyr St. George in charge.
[/quote]

In charge of what?

The institutions those sisters run the Nashville OPs or Ann Arbors or Altons (Martyr St. George) could not even begin to run---large institutions requiring a lot of training, experience, brains and skill. The Dominicans run elementary schools, the sisters from Nashville educated at a local tier 4 school in Nashville.

BTW the Altons had 2 final professions last year. The Dominicans are doing well, but after them, the numbers of final professions thin very quickly. Many of the cloistered houses are vanishing, habits and all, and no one is investigating [i]them.[/i]

I think that the Vatican's interest in these congregations' [i]finances[/i] was very interesting. What was the Vatican thinking of, maybe acquiring some money or land somewhere down the line?

The article from the NCR also made the following point:

"Several of the congregations being investigated consulted canon lawyers, who told the women that they were not required to answer all the questions. Religious, unlike bishops, priests and deacons, who make up the clergy, are not officially part of the church's hierarchical structure. According to this reasoning, women religious are responsible to their congregation leadership and to their constitutions".

Also precisely [i]two[/i] dioceses have come forward to help pay for the estimated 1.1 million the investigation will cost. The bishops of California, the largest state in the US, gave a vote of confidence for the sisters.

If anyone wants more accountability and transparency, why not look at all the unresolved cases of child abuse by religious in the US and Europe?

This quote is from the commentary which followed today's NCR article related to the responses of the congregations:

"What ever happened to the Accountability and Transparency that was promised by the bishops in 2002?

There has been the release in Ireland of the Ferns Report, the Ryan Report and now the partial release of the Dublin Report is expected on Thursday.(regarding widespread physical, psychological and sexual abuse of children by religious in Ireland). In the U.S. the Diocese of Bridgeport, Connecticut still has not released to the public the records, files, depositions etc., that have been ordered by the Supreme Court of the United States. Cardinal Roger Mahony and the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, California has yet to release their files, records and the like and it has been years since that court order was handed down.

The Philadelphia Grand Jury Report on the Archdiocese of Philadelphia was released in 2005 and there has been no real accountability and certainly no transparency in Philly. There are still churchmen in positions of leadership who were enablers of predatory priests' actions and thus complicit in the commission of horrific crimes against children - over years.(Of course, Cardinal Bernard Law of Boston, who was complicit, moving around known pedophiles for years, now occupies a cushy job in Rome).

The Diocese of Wilmington, Delaware filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy on the eve of going to trial on the DeLuca 8, so named for the Rev. Francis DeLuca, a serial predator against whom there are four named plaintiffs and four John Doe plaintiffs. I 9the writer) have met and listened to the stories of lives ruined from both categories. And yet, the Catholic Diocese of Wilmington, Delaware wants to continue paying salaries, health, housing, etc., for all "defrocked" or "removed from ministry" individuals including DeLuca, whose first transfer and every subsequent transfer was because of allegations of sexual abuse."

If you want accountability and transparency, start here. Why harass the sisters? They were never accused of [i]felonies.[/i]

[Vincent Vega]

Aaaaand....
[quote name='jkaands' date='25 November 2009 - 01:07 AM' timestamp='1259129239' post='2009109']
The article from the NCR
[/quote]
BZZZT!
Play again, better luck next time.

[melporcristo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 November 2009 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1259099734' post='2008716']
I would hope that some kind of disciplinary action would be taken, but I doubt that anything at all will be done.
[/quote]

"Doubt no longer, but believe!" - Pope John Paul II the Great

[quote]Several women said canon lawyers told the women they were not required to answer all the questions. Religious, unlike bishops, priests and deacons, who make up the clergy, are not officially part of the church's hierarchical structure. According to this reasoning, women religious are responsible to their congregation leadership and to their constitutions.
[/quote]

WHATtttt ... ok, I'm sorry, but women Religious ARE to follow Someone - GOD! Who sends His Holy Spirit to guide our Holy Father and the Bishops.

BTW - Does that supposed 1% who did fill out the entire survey mean that there are 1% solid, Orthodox women Religious Orders? I'd like to see where this supposed reporter found this information.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='jkaands' date='25 November 2009 - 01:07 AM' timestamp='1259129239' post='2009109']
In charge of what?

The institutions those sisters run the Nashville OPs or Ann Arbors or Altons (Martyr St. George) could not even begin to run---large institutions requiring a lot of training, experience, brains and skill. The Dominicans run elementary schools, the sisters from Nashville educated at a local tier 4 school in Nashville. [/quote]

The implication that these orders don't have training, experience, brains, or skill will inevitably tick people off. Regardless, it wasn't a practical suggestion, but more a way of emphatically supporting orthodox orders.

[quote]The article from the NCR also made the following point:

"Several of the congregations being investigated consulted canon lawyers, who told the women that they were not required to answer all the questions. Religious, unlike bishops, priests and deacons, who make up the clergy, are not officially part of the church's hierarchical structure. According to this reasoning, women religious are responsible to their congregation leadership and to their constitutions".[/quote]

Canon lawyers said that? Religious orders are answerable to the bishops. They are not free of the bishop's authority (although whole orders can't be stopped by any one bishop (save the pope), individual houses or monasteries can be). You see, that's the problem with trusting the National Catholic Distorter, they say what they want to be heard. Go read the Code of Canon Law, article 608 and following.

[quote]Also precisely [i]two[/i] dioceses have come forward to help pay for the estimated 1.1 million the investigation will cost. The bishops of California, the largest state in the US, gave a vote of confidence for the sisters.

If anyone wants more accountability and transparency, why not look at all the unresolved cases of child abuse by religious in the US and Europe?[/quote]

Pointing to a second issue doesn't make the first go away. We're not talking about sex abuse. Besides, tons has been done already about the sex abuse scandal. People really should stop pretending that the Church has done nothing about it. Move on. Much more to do. Lots of heresy to crush underfoot.


[quote]If you want accountability and transparency, start here. Why harass the sisters? They were never accused of [i]felonies.[/i]
[/quote]

You don't have to violate civil law to violate divine law or ecclesial law. Sisters who refuse to follow the charisms of their orders, preach heresy, work in social "justice" contrary to the faith, and much worse...these sisters cause scandal and division among the faithful and are responsible, together with bad theologians (like those hired at NCR), for the misinformation so common in the minds of the laity over a whole host of issues.

[holly.o]

When I looked at all those questions, I saw so much opportunity to explain how happy one was to be fulfilling her mission within the context of religious life. If I love what I'm doing, I like to tell others about it, explaining it as much as I think I can, so that they'll be excited, too. & so many chances to give glory to God for His hand guiding their work just missed...

To put it simply, I just don't understand the motives behind not answering.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='holly.o' date='26 November 2009 - 10:20 AM' timestamp='1259191208' post='2009442']


When I looked at all those questions, I saw so much opportunity to explain how happy one was to be fulfilling her mission within the context of religious life. If I love what I'm doing, I like to tell others about it, explaining it as much as I think I can, so that they'll be excited, too. & so many chances to give glory to God for His hand guiding their work just missed...

To put it simply, I just don't understand the motives behind not answering.
[/quote]


I think we do know the motives behind not answering but since we don't share those same feelings, it seems very strange. From things that very liberal (radically so) nuns have told me, they feel that women are oppressed in the Church by the male hierarchy, who deny them their rights (especially the right to ordination but others as well). By refusing to answer the questionnaire, they are saying that they don't recognise the authority behind the request. It is a radical feminist agenda, which seems to be operating on a very non-spiritual level, where things like "rights" and "personal freedoms" and "self-expression" have become the focus instead of serving God through His Church for the praise and glory of His name, no matter what the cost. Basically, they have "lost the plot". But the study is already a success in my eyes, because it has brought all of these attitudes to light, just by their refusal to answer the questions! When engaged in warfare (spiritual or otherwise), it is good to know just who is on your side! Prayers, prayers and more prayers for Our Holy Father during this time of rebellion.

[melporcristo]

JMJT

I still want to see where in the world this supposed reporter found his so-called news.

Grr... "journalist" ...