Women Religious Not Complying With Vatican Study

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='jkaands' date='04 January 2010 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1262660536' post='2029901']
There is an editorial in the NCR on the visitation, mainly about the manner in which it was instituted. I wish that this current visitation could be compared with the previous one regarding the seminaries in the US. This visitation was unannounced; it took the orders by surprise. One reason is that many/ (most?) of the orders send women to Rome or have women religious living there who are, or try to be in communication with the Vatican, should any questions come up. None apparently had come up until the visitation. This is led by ONE nun, a member of an order with few in the US, who is not known to anyone here. There was a large and long questionnaire, regarding age, money, financial holdings and management, and details on religious practice and the number in formation. The plan was to collate all of this--the nuns were supposed to PAY for the investigators--room, board, transportation--and send off a [i]secret [/i]report to Rome regarding their findings and conclusions. No discussions with the congregations over their impressions.

....I think that if one were to try this on the [i]men's[/i] congregations, one would run into trouble. I think that the [i]manner[/i] in which the Vatican proceeded had a lot to do with the response, or lack of it. If representatives in our federal government were to try this on US citizens, [i]they[/i] would run into trouble.

...Another point. I find that the focus on the total number [i]in formation[/i] can be misleading. In some habited orders, here may be a lot of postulants, novices and first professed, but, aside from a very few congregations, there are relatively few taking final vows. It is the final professions that count. And many of the habited groups, if one is to check those listed in the Institute for Religious Life, appear to be growing very slowly if at all.
[/quote]
nothing is misleading about the wave of young women who are searching for TRUE and AUTHENTIC religious life these days. No one is called NOT to wear the habit. No one is called to serve themselves and their own feminist agendas. No one is called to dissent against Church teaching. What is happening to these "communities" is that the Vatican is finally exposing their shameful ways...and they, like little bratty children, do not want to admit their error, but want to continue to live in dissent and still call themselves "Sisters."

Your analysis of those entering authentic religous life is not correct. There is a boom...a real growth in those communities who live religous life according to the spirit of their founders, that is, true to the Magisterium, and true to the traditions and practices of their founders. Just look at the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist. Founded and started by 4 women and thirteen years later...now 99! And you cannot really begin to see how many make final profession, because the community is so young...only 3 classes so far have made final professions! So far most have persevered. So I'm not sure how you can look at that and say "growing very slowly." That's not what it looks like to me!

[Ave Maria Totus Tuus]

It seems to me like this is the only way that the Church could come through and try to resolve a lot of issues that U.S. women religious orders are having. We hear about Sisters who are publicly against Church teaching, supporting practices which do not fall in line with the Magesterium, and we can't just always ignore it. We have to look at the root of why they felt they could act in this way, or why they seem to be dissenting. We do the same thing in the Navy--when you start to notice your sailors or your ship looking or acting out of line, or even just not to their fullest capacity, what do you do? You hold an inspection. You hold multiple inspections. You look at the individual personnel, at their facilities, at their training regimen, at the way they do maintenance. You enforce the standard. No one should be up in arms over this when all the Church is asking for is to observe how these communities "enforce the standard."

So where does the Vatican look? They look into the community's way of life. Are they authentically living the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience? I mean, that's square one. Asking for financial records, formation practices, etc is perfectly acceptable, as any responsible and faithful community, habited or not, would have this type of thing established and followed, and documented. Living in community, being faithful to community prayer and observance of the Sacraments frequently, a not necessarily long but fervent individual prayer life, fidelity to the founding charism and apostolate of the order--this is all which is most essential to a religious Sister and her community.

Many of these orders under investigation are doing great things in the world--serving the poor, the elderly, the children--and we know that. But all of those things--the apostolate, the work in the world--all of those things are [b]secondary[/b] in the life of a religious. The [b]primary[/b] role of a consecrated person is unity with God, which comes through fidelity in prayer, attentiveness to the Church, and a zeal for Truth.

The investigation is not questioning these womens' devotion to those they serve or are in some way measuring their actions. The investigation is to ensure their [b][i]fidelity[/i][/b] to their consecration. The religious life is a radical way of life. It [i]should[/i] look different. The manner of which they conduct their affairs [i]should[/i] seem radical and beyond the normal person. Religious life is not just some club to join for people who want to serve God's people. And while that type of "club" is surely is holy and worthy of praise, religious life is about so much more--it is ultimately about union with God and espousal to the person of Jesus Christ.


[quote]"It is the duty of the consecrated life to show forth the incarnate Son of God as the eschatological sign towards which all things tend, the splendor before which every other light pales, and the infinite beauty which alone can satisfy the human heart."

Pope John Paul II
[i]Vita Consecrata[/i] [/quote]

Edited January 5, 2010 by Ave Maria Totus Tuus

[CatherineM]

There was something in the NCR after that where a nun talked about former investigations that were much more invasive. She said their archives are full of old documents like this.

Maybe they should have called it a Census, and asked them to complete it by December 24th and send to Bethlehem.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jkaands' date='04 January 2010 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1262660536' post='2029901']
There is an editorial in the NCR on the visitation, mainly about the manner in which it was instituted. I wish that this current visitation could be compared with the previous one regarding the seminaries in the US. This visitation was unannounced; it took the orders by surprise. One reason is that many/ (most?) of the orders send women to Rome or have women religious living there who are, or try to be in communication with the Vatican, should any questions come up. None apparently had come up until the visitation. This is led by ONE nun, a member of an order with few in the US, who is not known to anyone here. There was a large and long questionnaire, regarding age, money, financial holdings and management, and details on religious practice and the number in formation. The plan was to collate all of this--the nuns were supposed to PAY for the investigators--room, board, transportation--and send off a [i]secret [/i]report to Rome regarding their findings and conclusions. No discussions with the congregations over their impressions.

....I think that if one were to try this on the [i]men's[/i] congregations, one would run into trouble. I think that the [i]manner[/i] in which the Vatican proceeded had a lot to do with the response, or lack of it. If representatives in our federal government were to try this on US citizens, [i]they[/i] would run into trouble.

...Another point. I find that the focus on the total number [i]in formation[/i] can be misleading. In some habited orders, here may be a lot of postulants, novices and first professed, but, aside from a very few congregations, there are relatively few taking final vows. It is the final professions that count. And many of the habited groups, if one is to check those listed in the Institute for Religious Life, appear to be growing very slowly if at all.
[/quote]
This visitation has been planned since the men's congregations were visited, how on earth can it be a surprise? What does it matter that they put one nun in charge, does everything have to be done by a committee? Seriously, its not like they gave the nuns 24 hours to comply! They are simply not happy the sister is from a small habited order and not one of their own cronies. Of course the order is supposed to feed and transport the person, its an inspection not a social visit. Does an auditor had over his report to his superiors or the person being audited? You can't compare it to reps from the federal goverment - they work for us - the sisters ostensibily work FOR the church.
This attitude is exactly what is wrong with many US congregations - they act like they are a seperate entity from the Church - answerable to no one.

[jkaands]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='05 January 2010 - 06:58 AM' timestamp='1262696334' post='2030155']
nothing is misleading about the wave of young women who are searching for TRUE and AUTHENTIC religious life these days. No one is called NOT to wear the habit. No one is called to serve themselves and their own feminist agendas. No one is called to dissent against Church teaching. What is happening to these "communities" is that the Vatican is finally exposing their shameful ways...and they, like little bratty children, do not want to admit their error, but want to continue to live in dissent and still call themselves "Sisters."

Your analysis of those entering authentic religious life is not correct. There is a boom...a real growth in those communities who live religious life according to the spirit of their founders, that is, true to the Magisterium, and true to the traditions and practices of their founders. Just look at the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist. Founded and started by 4 women and thirteen years later...now 99! And you cannot really begin to see how many make final profession, because the community is so young...only 3 classes so far have made final professions! So far most have persevered. So I'm not sure how you can look at that and say "growing very slowly." That's not what it looks like to me!
[/quote]

You're looking at one of the few, very few orders that is actively growing. These are the Nashville and Ann Arbor Dominicans, whom you mentioned, and [i]probably[/i] the Servants of the Lord and the Virgin of Matara, Sisters of life and the Salesian sisters (Philosobrat's order). These 3 orders have large novitiates but no information on numbers taking final vows, the only thing that really matters. These all either teach or have apostolates which deal with children and young people, forms of work which would appeal to the young. Other orders, which receive a lot of attention on the forums, include Franciscans for the Renewal---one final profession in '09, 2 in '08; Alton Franciscans (Srs. of St. Francis of the Martyr St George)---2 final professions in '09, Carmelites of the Sacred Heart of LA (FULL habit)--1 final profession in '09. No information regarding the Sisters of Life, Virgin of Matara or Salesian final professions.

When one cites a horde of young nuns, one should consider only final professions and ends up usually referring to Ann Arbor or Nashville or perhaps one of the others mentioned above. After that the numbers thin out rapidly.

[jkaands]

[quote name='alleros' date='05 December 2009 - 07:29 AM' timestamp='1260019775' post='2014940']
Here in Ireland, they leave them to rot rather than let them be used by others.. and they were bult by public subscription.

Terrible waste.

NB not sure if this has been said, but the inquiry does not include contemplative orders.

Many of the orders being assessed are now small and not renewing also.

PS here and not sure re the US, the bishops have no say; the convents belong to the religious orders not the dioceses

When an order dies, all assets also go the the vatican.

Here, the Mercy Srs have just had to hand over another 138 million euros in cash and property to the victims of their abuse; they are so rich that they will not miss it.
[/quote]

Many of those ancient buildings are filled with asbestos and either can't be renovated or would cost a fortune to do so. They also have antiquated heating systems and are obsolete in design, huge long corridors, high ceilings, etc. I am sure that the wood work and stain glass windows will find good homes. A large order of Benedictine Sisters in the US was shackled with a huge over 100,000 squ feet building which was a combined novitiate, college, infirmary, etc which they finally, after a long struggle in the courts, etc were able to demolish. They didn't want to sell it to just anyone and no reputable buyer came forward.

Regarding the Vatican's investigations into money, which probably left the women's orders ill at ease, and do the same for me, the women's orders have engaged in responsible stewardship and planning for at least 30 years and probably longer. They have led the way in designing and building attractive and simple housing for their older sisters and making what money they had stretch as far as possible by selling off their obsolete properties, which were bought mainly for the land. I don't think that as their numbers dwindle, they will have much left over and they certainly won't want to give it to Rome or their local diocese, many of which became impoverished by the pedophile scandal, which had nothing to do with the nuns. If anything, they will probably want to give it to other members in their confederations. A few branches of these orders will probably remain and survive.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='jkaands' date='05 January 2010 - 01:51 PM' timestamp='1262717476' post='2030251']
You're looking at one of the few, very few orders that is actively growing. These are the Nashville and Ann Arbor Dominicans, whom you mentioned, and [i]probably[/i] the Servants of the Lord and the Virgin of Matara, Sisters of life and the Salesian sisters (Philosobrat's order). These 3 orders have large novitiates but no information on numbers taking final vows, the only thing that really matters. These all either teach or have apostolates which deal with children and young people, forms of work which would appeal to the young. Other orders, which receive a lot of attention on the forums, include Franciscans for the Renewal---one final profession in '09, 2 in '08; Alton Franciscans (Srs. of St. Francis of the Martyr St George)---2 final professions in '09, Carmelites of the Sacred Heart of LA (FULL habit)--1 final profession in '09. No information regarding the Sisters of Life, Virgin of Matara or Salesian final professions.

When one cites a horde of young nuns, one should consider only final professions and ends up usually referring to Ann Arbor or Nashville or perhaps one of the others mentioned above. After that the numbers thin out rapidly.
[/quote]

the point is, many of these "few" communities as you believe...are the one's who have no problem with the Vatican inquiry, because they are living authentic religious, and not their own feminist agendas. Also, I know for certain the majority of women who have entered these traditional communities have made it through final profession.

There is an increase, whether or not one wishes to see it, in these more traditional, respectable, communities living in compliance with the Holy Spirit.

those who are bothered by the Vatican Inquiry would pick out the most mundane reason to complain and whine...when did these communities think that they exist outside the Church? When did these communities believe it was a right to start living out their own agendas? The Vatican has every right to inquire what kind of life these women are living! The Vatican certainly know that they aren't living the religious life!

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='jkaands' date='05 January 2010 - 03:00 PM' timestamp='1262718031' post='2030258']

the women's orders have engaged in responsible stewardship and planning for at least 30 years and probably longer.
[/quote]

People are called to different expressions of poverty, of course. But when I hear about the wildly successful management of a religious Institute's investment portfolio, it rubs me the wrong way. I know of one institute where, if they liquidated all their assets and divided all their wealth equally, each individual Sister would be a millionaire several times over. Its a delicate balance of course. Destitution isn't advisable either. But at what point does prudence and responsibility turn into the the rich man storing up grain in bigger barns?

As I heard one Sister put it: "No margin, no mission." shhiiiiiverrr ...

[jkaands]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='05 January 2010 - 01:15 PM' timestamp='1262718930' post='2030270']
People are called to different expressions of poverty, of course. But when I hear about the wildly successful management of a religious Institute's investment portfolio, it rubs me the wrong way. I know of one institute where, if they liquidated all their assets and divided all their wealth equally, each individual Sister would be a millionaire several times over. Its a delicate balance of course. Destitution isn't advisable either. But at what point does prudence and responsibility turn into the the rich man storing up grain in bigger barns?

As I heard one Sister put it: "No margin, no mission." shhiiiiiverrr ...[/quote]

The world runs on money. How are these institutes supposed to underwrite their missions? Who pays for their ministries to the poor? How are they supposed to support themselves and maintain those huge buildings that some of them still have? They can rely on nothing from Rome or their dioceses, which are usually broke. Who will support them in old age?

Many institutes are collectively wealthy, but the money belongs to the institute, not to its members. They could no more split up the pot than the US Congress can sell its building.

Most of their investments are in "clean", sound industries. I remember that, years ago, religious institutes were the first to divest their holdings in South Africa, after this became known. Their investments usually avoid anything to do with alcohol, nuclear weapons or armaments of any kind.
[/quote]

I doubt that many of these institutes are storing money. As their numbers dwindle, so the needs of the older sisters become more pronounced. And the [i]growing [/i]institutes have plenty of places to use their money--and make numerous appeals for money on their websites!

I don't know where the money for the Sisters of Mercy settlement in Ireland is going to come from. I doubt that they are 'rolling' in money. I suspect that they are rolling in unusable properties on land which they must now sell, as it has become quite valuable--or was before the present bust.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='jkaands' date='05 January 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1262723020' post='2030309']
The world runs on money. How are these institutes supposed to underwrite their missions? Who pays for their ministries to the poor? How are they supposed to support themselves and maintain those huge buildings that some of them still have? They can rely on nothing from Rome or their dioceses, which are usually broke. Who will support them in old age?
[/quote]

Well, I can not answer you except to say that it is done. There are congregations and institutes large, small, old and new, that categorically refuse to have endowments of any kind. Little Sisters of the Poor, for example. Of course, that is part of their charism. Religious are called to many different expressions of poverty.

But the question remains, at what point does the accumulation of wealth become you know, a stumbling block. It's not money, but Providence, that makes the world go round. God can let your bank burn down and the stock market crash, any time He likes. For example, the Sister who said "no margin, no mission," was wrong. It is possible to serve God without turning a profit or maintaining positive cash flow. That is a matter of faith, I think, that God does not need money to get His work done.

[AccountDeleted]

Ok - don't everyone jump down my throat here but I was having a discussion with my (agnostic) sister, as I usually do, about the Church, and she is one of those people who thinks the Church is invisible because the nuns don't wear habits any more and she would like to see more of them on the street (she is NOT a Catholic).

Well, that aside, we were talking about the investigation of the US nuns and she started talking about things in her workplace and how they might handle such a "management issue". And one conclusion was that if constantly trying to fix or repair the situation didn't work, perhaps the answer was to shut down all the current departments (the religious communities who are giving problems) and just start over again with new departments.

Now, I know this is a very worldly view, especially since many of these communities do wonderful social works. But as someone else here said, that isn't what their real mission is, now is it? As religious, they work for the well being of the Church, and their aposotlates should be furthering that well being, not just serving the physical, mental and emotional needs of the world. Sometimes it seems as if some of these communities have already cut the cord between them and the Church, by rebelling against the hierarchy. If they want to become just social institutions though, why not let them? Let all those communities who want nothing to do with the hierarchy, go off on their own as chariable institutions, but not religious ones! They can continue their wonderful ministries, but not be called nuns any more. They get to do their good works, and the Church doesn't have the scandal of nuns in rebellion.

Then let new institutes of religious life be started for those women who actually want to be nuns, answerable to Rome and wearing habits - their uniforms as soldiers of Christ.

Just one person's opinion (oh yeah, and my sister's too ) Now I wait for all the negatives!

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='nunsense' date='05 January 2010 - 07:03 PM' timestamp='1262736225' post='2030442']
Ok - don't everyone jump down my throat here but I was having a discussion with my (agnostic) sister, as I usually do, about the Church, and she is one of those people who thinks the Church is invisible because the nuns don't wear habits any more and she would like to see more of them on the street (she is NOT a Catholic).

Well, that aside, we were talking about the investigation of the US nuns and she started talking about things in her workplace and how they might handle such a "management issue". And one conclusion was that if constantly trying to fix or repair the situation didn't work, perhaps the answer was to shut down all the current departments (the religious communities who are giving problems) and just start over again with new departments.

Now, I know this is a very worldly view, especially since many of these communities do wonderful social works. But as someone else here said, that isn't what their real mission is, now is it? As religious, they work for the well being of the Church, and their aposotlates should be furthering that well being, not just serving the physical, mental and emotional needs of the world. Sometimes it seems as if some of these communities have already cut the cord between them and the Church, by rebelling against the hierarchy. If they want to become just social institutions though, why not let them? Let all those communities who want nothing to do with the hierarchy, go off on their own as chariable institutions, but not religious ones! They can continue their wonderful ministries, but not be called nuns any more. They get to do their good works, and the Church doesn't have the scandal of nuns in rebellion.

Then let new institutes of religious life be started for those women who actually want to be nuns, answerable to Rome and wearing habits - their uniforms as soldiers of Christ.

Just one person's opinion (oh yeah, and my sister's too ) Now I wait for all the negatives!
[/quote]
amen!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='06 January 2010 - 09:31 AM' timestamp='1262730676' post='2030400']
Well, I can not answer you except to say that it is done. There are congregations and institutes large, small, old and new, that categorically refuse to have endowments of any kind. Little Sisters of the Poor, for example. Of course, that is part of their charism. Religious are called to many different expressions of poverty.

But the question remains, at what point does the accumulation of wealth become you know, a stumbling block. It's not money, but Providence, that makes the world go round. God can let your bank burn down and the stock market crash, any time He likes. For example, the Sister who said "no margin, no mission," was wrong. It is possible to serve God without turning a profit or maintaining positive cash flow. That is a matter of faith, I think, that God does not need money to get His work done.
[/quote]


Amen and amen and amen and plus one. Money is NOT the saving grace of this world or any other! Faith in Jesus and obedience to His Church is.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='jkaands' date='05 January 2010 - 01:51 PM' timestamp='1262717476' post='2030251']
You're looking at one of the few, very few orders that is actively growing. These are the Nashville and Ann Arbor Dominicans, whom you mentioned, and [i]probably[/i] the Servants of the Lord and the Virgin of Matara, Sisters of life and the Salesian sisters (Philosobrat's order). These 3 orders have large novitiates but no information on numbers taking final vows, the only thing that really matters. These all either teach or have apostolates which deal with children and young people, forms of work which would appeal to the young. Other orders, which receive a lot of attention on the forums, include Franciscans for the Renewal---one final profession in '09, 2 in '08; Alton Franciscans (Srs. of St. Francis of the Martyr St George)---2 final professions in '09, Carmelites of the Sacred Heart of LA (FULL habit)--1 final profession in '09. No information regarding the Sisters of Life, Virgin of Matara or Salesian final professions.

When one cites a horde of young nuns, one should consider only final professions and ends up usually referring to Ann Arbor or Nashville or perhaps one of the others mentioned above. After that the numbers thin out rapidly.
[/quote]

Yet if there are no new aspirants at all, then how will a community last?

[Ave Maria Totus Tuus]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='05 January 2010 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1262739459' post='2030483']
Yet if there are no new aspirants at all, then how will a community last?
[/quote]

Exactly.

If you think about it, most religious orders have a minimum of 7 years between initial entrance and Profession of Final Vows...give it a little time. The boom we've been seeing over the past four years or so will be reflected in the statistics of those making final vows within the next couple of years.

The Springtime of the consecrated life is here. And isn't it wonderful?