Women Religious Not Complying With Vatican Study

[jkaands]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='05 January 2010 - 01:07 PM' timestamp='1262718459' post='2030264']
the point is, many of these "few" communities as you believe...are the one's who have no problem with the Vatican inquiry, because they are living authentic religious, and not their own feminist agendas. Also, I know for certain the majority of women who have entered these traditional communities have made it through final profession.

There is an increase, whether or not one wishes to see it, in these more traditional, respectable, communities living in compliance with the Holy Spirit.

those who are bothered by the Vatican Inquiry would pick out the most mundane reason to complain and whine...when did these communities think that they exist outside the Church? When did these communities believe it was a right to start living out their own agendas? The Vatican has every right to inquire what kind of life these women are living! The Vatican certainly know that they aren't living the religious life![/quote]

I suspect that you are generalizing your remarks from very little information. The orders were given permission to experiment with their constitutions and their habits by Vatican II, whatever people may think about this in retrospect. The vast manority of these sisters are very faithful to the church, despite a noisy, rebellious minority, which always appears to capture the press.

Regarding numbers making final profession, some of the habited orders have made this quite easy to track what happens to various classes, with their frequent updates on clothing and profession days and newsletters. The Nashville Dominicans, for example, in one recent class had 18 postulants--a large group by anyone's reckoning. SIX were clothed. I can't predict out of this recent class how many will make it to final profession. The low numbers in final profession with the Franciscans of the Renewal, Carmelites of the Sacred Heart of LA and Alton Franciscans are in contrast with the relative large numbers of postulants and smaller but still larg-ish novitiate classes. In addition, it appears to me that the numbers entering are tapering off in many congregations, although Nashville and Ann Arbor remain high.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='jkaands' date='06 January 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1262813179' post='2031083']
I suspect that you are generalizing your remarks from very little information. The orders were given permission to experiment with their constitutions and their habits by Vatican II, whatever people may think about this in retrospect. The vast manority of these sisters are very faithful to the church, despite a noisy, rebellious minority, which always appears to capture the press.

Regarding numbers making final profession, some of the habited orders have made this quite easy to track what happens to various classes, with their frequent updates on clothing and profession days and newsletters. The Nashville Dominicans, for example, in one recent class had 18 postulants--a large group by anyone's reckoning. SIX were clothed. I can't predict out of this recent class how many will make it to final profession. The low numbers in final profession with the Franciscans of the Renewal, Carmelites of the Sacred Heart of LA and Alton Franciscans are in contrast with the relative large numbers of postulants and smaller but still larg-ish novitiate classes. In addition, it appears to me that the numbers entering are tapering off in many congregations, although Nashville and Ann Arbor remain high.
[/quote]

Still much higher than only one in the course of many, many years. Some haven't seen a new vocation in over 20 years. So, in comparison, I'd say six making it to final profession per year... well, that's quite a difference, isn't it?

[jkaands]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='05 January 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1262739459' post='2030483']
Yet if there are no new aspirants at all, then how will a community last?
[/quote]

Some communities, and branches of large orders won't last, over time. But for many of the large, aging orders, the Dominicans and Benedictines, especially, there were too many of them in the first place. Many orders and branches were founded during the period in the 19th and first half of the 20thc. when there was an immense immigration of Catholics, including Germans, Irish, Italians, Poles and other groups and then [i]they [/i]all had children, lots of them. This ended after 1950-1960 and the number of those entering religious life started to slow BEFORE Vat II, as other opportunities for women opened up. But all those branch houses had been built and were filled with sisters. This [i]had[/i] to change. The women Benedictines carpeted the upper midwest, Minnesota and the Dakotas, especially, with branches everywhere--there must still be 30 Benedictine houses in the US (WOMEN's). The Dominicans carpeted the mid-Atlantic states, especially New York and Ohio. Many of the Dominican houses have reunited--the (new) Dominicans of Peace and Hope being two such new groups. Some of the smaller Benedictine houses have closed or united with other groups. The larger groups, some of them previously huge--the Adrian Dominicans at 1200--are shrinking, which is what one would expect. Women are not entering religious life in large numbers anymore. But I suspect that some of the strongest branches and congregations of the non-habited groups will survive. As Mark Twain said, "Reports of my death are greatly exaggerated."

The younger ones are being attracted to habits, tradition and teaching, with two orders, not 10 or 20, attracting vocations from the entire country, or the evangelization of youth, with another two or three getting most of these vocations. The rest are growing more slowly.

[jkaands]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' date='06 January 2010 - 03:39 PM' timestamp='1262813964' post='2031107']
Still much higher than only one in the course of many, many years. Some haven't seen a new vocation in over 20 years. So, in comparison, I'd say six making it to final profession per year... well, that's quite a difference, isn't it?
[/quote]

Six making final profession is a large number, and as far as I can see, applicable to the Nashville and Ann Arbor Dominicans only. Actually, Ann Arbor had 'only' five last year .

But I can't find any numbers for final professions from other orders with large novitiates, like Sisters of Life, Virgin of Matara or the Salesians. They aren't posting these professions on their websites. Others such as the Alton Franciscans, Carmelites and Franciscans of the Renewal are low for finals. It may be just a glitch. Time will tell.

[brightsadness]

As someone who is in the process of discerning religious life, I am very aware of the submission to God required by and expressed through the legitimate authority of the Church. It appears (from the outside) to be a very intimate submission. And I am very grave in my discernment as to whether I have the faith to make it... but it is clear to me that the Church may require it of those who have vowed obedience through a rule and constitution. It gives "unto death" much meaning. I can't imagine discerning with a community unwilling to accept this radical call to obedience. How could I trust them with my spiritual formation?

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='jkaands' date='06 January 2010 - 05:50 PM' timestamp='1262814648' post='2031124']
Six making final profession is a large number, and as far as I can see, applicable to the Nashville and Ann Arbor Dominicans only. Actually, Ann Arbor had 'only' five last year .

But I can't find any numbers for final professions from other orders with large novitiates, like Sisters of Life, Virgin of Matara or the Salesians. They aren't posting these professions on their websites. Others such as the Alton Franciscans, Carmelites and Franciscans of the Renewal are low for finals. It may be just a glitch. Time will tell.
[/quote]

For the [url="http://ssvmusa.org"]Servants of the Lord and the Virgin of Matara[/url] -- last year, two sisters made Final Profession and the year before that there were six. (I was at these professions. The year of the six Final Professions there were also twelve First Professions, if memory serves me right.) Internationally the numbers of Final Profession are MUCH higher, especially in South America. The order was founded in 1988 in Argentina and were invited to open missions in the U.S. only a little over ten years ago -- the priests (IVE) have been in the U.S. for a little over twenty years. World wide there are currently 371 perpetually professed. (Usually it takes approximately seven to eight years from entrance to Final Profession.)

In addition, last year two of the South American provinces (not including Argentina) had forty invested in the habit as novices. (Unfortunately, I don't know how many will profess their First Vows this March.) And in the U.S. on December 14th 2009, fourteen sister were invested in the novitiate habit with four making First Profession.

God willing, they will all persevere if this is indeed their vocation.

Here are some numbers on the SSVM if anyone's interested: [url="http://www.servidoras.org/casas.asp"]SSVM en el Mundo[/url]

[Skinzo]

Posted by Jkaands:
[/quote]Regarding the Vatican's investigations into money, which probably left the women's orders ill at ease, and do the same for me, the women's orders have engaged in responsible stewardship and planning for at least 30 years and probably longer. They have led the way in designing and building attractive and simple housing for their older sisters and making what money they had stretch as far as possible by selling off their obsolete properties, which were bought mainly for the land. I don't think that as their numbers dwindle, they will have much left over and they certainly won't want to give it to Rome or their local diocese, many of which became impoverished by the pedophile scandal, which had nothing to do with the nuns. If anything, they will probably want to give it to other members in their confederations. A few branches of these orders will probably remain and survive.
[/quote]

Have the books of these orders been open at some point that you or anyone else would really know what they have done with their money? As to sex abuse and nuns, there are certainly allegations out there and it seems the subject is anything but closed as noted in this link:
http://www.snapnetwork.org/female_victims/dozens_allege_nuns.htm

S.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Skinzo

[Ave Maria Totus Tuus]

[quote name='jkaands' date='06 January 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1262813179' post='2031083']
The Nashville Dominicans, for example, in one recent class had 18 postulants--a large group by anyone's reckoning. SIX were clothed. I can't predict out of this recent class how many will make it to final profession. [/quote]

I have correct the numbers here. You must be referring to the 18 young women who entered the Nashville Dominicans as postulants in the fall of 2008. 13 of those women were clothed in the habit of Saint Dominic in the summer of 2009.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Ave Maria Totus Tuus' date='06 January 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1262828797' post='2031285']
I have correct the numbers here. You must be referring to the 18 young women who entered the Nashville Dominicans as postulants in the fall of 2008. 13 of those women were clothed in the habit of Saint Dominic in the summer of 2009.
[/quote]

What are the sources for the figures cited here? It would be helpful if we provide links to clear up such discrepancies. This article notes there are 45 novices and it is also encouraging to hear the average age of the Sisters is 36! Quite a contrast to the so-called "liberal" nuns.
See: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/nashville_dominicans_preparing_for_large_postulant_class/

S.

[CatherineM]

I ran across this while looking something else up in Canon Law today. Don't know if anyone else has already posted it, and am too tired to find out.

Canon 628
§1 Superiors who are designated for this office by the institute’s own law are at stated
times to visit the houses and the members entrusted to them, in accordance with the norms of the
same law.

§2 The diocesan Bishop has the right and the duty to visit the following, even in respect of
religious discipline:

1° the autonomous monasteries mentioned in Canon 615;

2° the individual houses of an institute of diocesan right situated in his territory.

§3 The members are to act with confidence towards the visitator, to whom when lawfully
questioning they are bound to reply truthfully and with charity. It is not lawful for anyone in any
way to divert the members from this obligation or otherwise to hinder the scope of the visitation.

I especially like section 3.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='06 January 2010 - 06:04 PM' timestamp='1262822641' post='2031230']
Posted by Jkaands:
[/quote]Regarding the Vatican's investigations into money, which probably left the women's orders ill at ease, and do the same for me, the women's orders have engaged in responsible stewardship and planning for at least 30 years and probably longer. They have led the way in designing and building attractive and simple housing for their older sisters and making what money they had stretch as far as possible by selling off their obsolete properties, which were bought mainly for the land. I don't think that as their numbers dwindle, they will have much left over and they certainly won't want to give it to Rome or their local diocese, many of which became impoverished by the pedophile scandal, which had nothing to do with the nuns. If anything, they will probably want to give it to other members in their confederations. A few branches of these orders will probably remain and survive.
[/quote]

Have the books of these orders been open at some point that you or anyone else would really know what they have done with their money? As to sex abuse and nuns, there are certainly allegations out there and it seems the subject is anything but closed as noted in this link:
http://www.snapnetwork.org/female_victims/dozens_allege_nuns.htm

S.
[/quote]

I haven't heard about nun abuse (BY nuns) in the US_of course it occurred in Ireland. The RSMs are getting very few entrants there now. There was some abuse of nuns by priests--a lot in Africa--and some here, but not recently.

I don't know why anyone would particularly be interested in the nuns'"books" unless there were a question of malfeasance, anymore than one would want to look at dioceses' books, unless there were a question. I personally doubt that there are a lot of huge nuns' stock portfolios rolling around--they have been building a lot of assisted living-type buildings, a type very expensive to build with the accessible corridors, bathrooms, etc. Most of these congregations appear to have long-range planning meetings all the time and are filled with nuns who have had a lot of experience running large institutions.

Regarding the numbers of novices, etc. it seemed to me that I had correctly worked out the class dates of the postulants and the size of the subsequent novitiate. But I don't think that the Nashville publishes these numbers in an archival form--newsletters--than can help one keep track. But I do feel that there is a lot of attrition, and less among the non-habited orders which tend to accept older applicants. This is why I think that the NRVC/CARA study with a cut-off of 10 in formation doesn't have a lot of meaning. Ten what? Postulants? Temporarily professed up for final?

[jkaands]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='06 January 2010 - 09:18 PM' timestamp='1262834284' post='2031355']
I ran across this while looking something else up in Canon Law today. Don't know if anyone else has already posted it, and am too tired to find out.

Canon 628
§1 Superiors who are designated for this office by the institute’s own law are at stated
times to visit the houses and the members entrusted to them, in accordance with the norms of the
same law.

§2 The diocesan Bishop has the right and the duty to visit the following, even in respect of
religious discipline:

1° the autonomous monasteries mentioned in Canon 615;

2° the individual houses of an institute of diocesan right situated in his territory.

§3 The members are to act with confidence towards the visitator, to whom when lawfully
questioning they are bound to reply truthfully and with charity. It is not lawful for anyone in any
way to divert the members from this obligation or otherwise to hinder the scope of the visitation.

I especially like section 3.
[/quote]

Yes, exactly:

1) Canon 628
§1 Superiors who are designated for this office by the institute’s own law

or:

§2 The diocesan Bishop has the right and the duty to visit the following, even in respect of
religious discipline:

--not a Vatican commission.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jkaands' date='07 January 2010 - 12:44 AM' timestamp='1262839456' post='2031488']
Yes, exactly:

1) Canon 628
§1 Superiors who are designated for this office by the institute’s own law

or:

§2 The diocesan Bishop has the right and the duty to visit the following, even in respect of
religious discipline:

--not a Vatican commission.
[/quote]
You aren't serious are you? If the diocesan bishop has the right and duty, HIS boss at the Vatican certainly does as well.

[OraProMe]

When I am elected to the papacy I am going to have a massive red stamp that reads "EXCOMMUNICATED" and go around stamping it on these women's foreheads.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='jkaands' date='07 January 2010 - 12:41 AM' timestamp='1262839283' post='2031478']

I haven't heard about nun abuse (BY nuns) in the US_of course it occurred in Ireland. The RSMs are getting very few entrants there now. There was some abuse of nuns by priests--a lot in Africa--and some here, but not recently.

I don't know why anyone would particularly be interested in the nuns'"books" unless there were a question of malfeasance, anymore than one would want to look at dioceses' books, unless there were a question. I personally doubt that there are a lot of huge nuns' stock portfolios rolling around--they have been building a lot of assisted living-type buildings, a type very expensive to build with the accessible corridors, bathrooms, etc. Most of these congregations appear to have long-range planning meetings all the time and are filled with nuns who have had a lot of experience running large institutions.

Regarding the numbers of novices, etc. it seemed to me that I had correctly worked out the class dates of the postulants and the size of the subsequent novitiate. But I don't think that the Nashville publishes these numbers in an archival form--newsletters--than can help one keep track. But I do feel that there is a lot of attrition, and less among the non-habited orders which tend to accept older applicants. This is why I think that the NRVC/CARA study with a cut-off of 10 in formation doesn't have a lot of meaning. Ten what? Postulants? Temporarily professed up for final?
[/quote]

Thanks. You have confirmed that you have no knowledge of their financial records. And you provide no sources for your "numbers" about the Nashville Dominicans. Only that you "feel" about "attrition", etc. It is indeed the "non habited" orders which are FORCED to accept older applicants in fact, unlike the Nashville Dominicans whose average age is 36! But of course until you provide numbers and sources for what you are talking about this discussion is moot. I guess you had not heard about abuse by US sisters because you have not looked. An excerpt from the source I provided:
"Dozens Allege Sex Abuse by Nuns

SNAP calls on victims to tell stories, appeals to female clergy conference

By Frank Langfitt, Baltimore Sun
July 14, 2004

SILVER SPRING - Spotlighting the role of female clergy in sexual abuse for the first time, a victims advocacy group said yesterday that it had identified about 100 people in the United States who said they had been assaulted by Catholic nuns, sisters and other female religious workers."

S.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Skinzo