Women Religious Not Complying With Vatican Study

[Skinzo]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='07 January 2010 - 12:50 AM' timestamp='1262839856' post='2031498']
You aren't serious are you? If the diocesan bishop has the right and duty, HIS boss at the Vatican certainly does as well.
[/quote]

Yes, I think the pope's universal jurisdiction is still intact as re-affirmed at Vatican II.

S.

[jkaands]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='06 January 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1262843079' post='2031582']
When I am elected to the papacy I am going to have a massive red stamp that reads "EXCOMMUNICATED" and go around stamping it on these women's foreheads.
[/quote]

Thank fortune you aren't a candidate (you aren't a cardinal, are you?!) Their bishops haven't excommunicated them, to my knowledge.

Re the 19th c-first half of 20th c. carpeting of the US by OSB/OP orders, I counted 46 Benedictine branches of women in the US, NOT 30, and that does not include the house in Columbia MO, which closed. Too, too many. The smaller ones will merge or close, I suspect. The Dominicans are more mobile and many have merged.

Re the Nashville numbers, there IS an archive--"Veritas", their bi-annual newsletter going back to 2006. No issue for last fall, tho'. The 'smallest' class is 2007 -'only' 8 postulants and the biggest attrition appears to be the postulant class of 2006 of 13, ending up with 6 taking first vows in 2009. This order recruits from all over the US.

[Ave Maria Totus Tuus]

[quote name='jkaands' date='07 January 2010 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1262884008' post='2031788']
Re the Nashville numbers, there IS an archive--"Veritas", their bi-annual newsletter going back to 2006. No issue for last fall, tho'. The 'smallest' class is 2007 -'only' 8 postulants and the biggest attrition appears to be the postulant class of 2006 of 13, ending up with 6 taking first vows in 2009. This order recruits from all over the US.
[/quote]

The formation for the Nashville Dominicans is that First Vows are made after two years in community. Your last figure is incorrect. 8 women entered in fall 2007, and 6 of them made First Vows summer of 2009. The group of 13 you refer to entered in fall of 2006 and 12 of them made First Vows in the summer of 2008. I cite "Veritas."

Also, a detail note--Sisters do not "recruit." Religious life is a calling, not something you are "talked into" by a "recruiter." Vocation Directors travel and meet young women in order to expose them to religious life, a state of life which is nearly unknown by most Catholics in the U.S. and abroad. By exposing them to the life, it enables young women to open their hearts to better hear the voice of God, Who alone calls people to their state of life.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Ave Maria Totus Tuus' date='07 January 2010 - 12:52 PM' timestamp='1262890322' post='2031829']
The formation for the Nashville Dominicans is that First Vows are made after two years in community. Your last figure is incorrect. 8 women entered in fall 2007, and 6 of them made First Vows summer of 2009. The group of 13 you refer to entered in fall of 2006 and 12 of them made First Vows in the summer of 2008. I cite "Veritas."

Also, a detail note--Sisters do not "recruit." Religious life is a calling, not something you are "talked into" by a "recruiter." Vocation Directors travel and meet young women in order to expose them to religious life, a state of life which is nearly unknown by most Catholics in the U.S. and abroad. By exposing them to the life, it enables young women to open their hearts to better hear the voice of God, Who alone calls people to their state of life.
[/quote]

From what I've been able to figure out, the Nashville OP have one year in postulancy, two years in novitiate, the first being the required canonical year, then temporary vows for two years, then final. So there are three years in community from entrance as a postulant until temporary vows. With a five year time period for the average entrant, this means that someone can enter at 18 and be finally professed at 23, which sounds young to me. Yes, people do get married at that age, but a lot of people also get divorced who marry at 23.

The use of the words "recruit" and "recruitment" is semantics. For me, growing up before Vat II, sisters were definitely recruited, believe me.

[jkaands]

[quote name='brightsadness' date='06 January 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1262817135' post='2031161']
As someone who is in the process of discerning religious life, I am very aware of the submission to God required by and expressed through the legitimate authority of the Church. It appears (from the outside) to be a very intimate submission. And I am very grave in my discernment as to whether I have the faith to make it... but it is clear to me that the Church may require it of those who have vowed obedience through a rule and constitution. It gives "unto death" much meaning. I can't imagine discerning with a community unwilling to accept this radical call to obedience. How could I trust them with my spiritual formation?
[/quote]

Obedience is very important in all communities. The first vow of Benedictines is obedience, then conversion of life and then stability, not in order of importance but all 3 taken together. Some is literal and hard--the Missionaries of Charity say that you must agree to be sent anywhere (in the world) and do anything. My impression is that there are not a lot of women from the US persevering in the MC. For other orders, probably the Nashville and Ann Arbors, they may receive assignments yearly as it was done formerly. In the 'updated' orders, I think, judging from the stories I have read, that sisters are 'asked' to do something, but usually do not turn it down. It is understood that the 'asking' and accepting are forms of obedience, and talents and preferences are always considered. I do get concerned when posters ask about various works--art, medicine--in communities; these opportunities may exist but they can also vanish, and this knowledge must be forefront in entering any community.

How the visitation will play out is as yet uncertain. Orders have sent copies of their rules and constitutions, which always reflect the status of the current community, as they are kept up to date. It may be that the leaders of the congregations of the institutes are talking to Rome. The Benedictines', also the Dominicans' institutes tend to be part of larger congregations, and, in the case of the Dominicans at least, there is a Master of the Order, currently Father Carlos Azpiroz. I don't know.

If an 18 year old wanted to enter one of the 'updated' orders, they would probably tell her to go to college and keep in touch. Their ministries are so specialized and demanding,they require a great deal of maturity, experience and judgment, not present in the typical 18 year old. Most require at least 2 years of work and preferably college--I thought that the 2 years of work was required (after high school) but apparently not.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='07 January 2010 - 05:08 AM' timestamp='1262862529' post='2031630']
Thanks. You have confirmed that you have no knowledge of their financial records. And you provide no sources for your "numbers" about the Nashville Dominicans. Only that you "feel" about "attrition", etc. It is indeed the "non habited" orders which are FORCED to accept older applicants in fact, unlike the Nashville Dominicans whose average age is 36! But of course until you provide numbers and sources for what you are talking about this discussion is moot. I guess you had not heard about abuse by US sisters because you have not looked. An excerpt from the source I provided:
"Dozens Allege Sex Abuse by Nuns

SNAP calls on victims to tell stories, appeals to female clergy conference

By Frank Langfitt, Baltimore Sun
July 14, 2004

SILVER SPRING - Spotlighting the role of female clergy in sexual abuse for the first time, a victims advocacy group said yesterday that it had identified about 100 people in the United States who said they had been assaulted by Catholic nuns, sisters and other female religious workers."

S.
[/quote]
I was not aware that the subject of this thread was sexual abuse by American nuns. I am not denying that this may exist or have existed, certainly verbal and physical abuse did, but I am not aware of sexual abuse. If it existed and was widespread, I am very surprised that the lay press hasn't gotten ahold of it, as it did the pedophilia crisis. The press loves stuff like this. I don't know why you are raising this subject. Your link is over 5 years old, by the way. Anything more recent?

Similarly I was not aware that the financial situation of American nuns requires an investigation. There have been no allegations of embezzlement or theft that I have heard about and no reason to suspect any. The occasional priest is so accused, so the press certainly isn't hesitant about publishing these cases.

Rome has a lot on its hands besides investigating the finances of American nuns. Regarding their rules and constitutions, the institutes are submitting these to Rome.

Edited January 7, 2010 by jkaands

[jkaands]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='06 January 2010 - 04:41 PM' timestamp='1262817677' post='2031173']
For the [url="http://ssvmusa.org"]Servants of the Lord and the Virgin of Matara[/url] -- last year, two sisters made Final Profession and the year before that there were six. (I was at these professions. The year of the six Final Professions there were also twelve First Professions, if memory serves me right.) Internationally the numbers of Final Profession are MUCH higher, especially in South America. The order was founded in 1988 in Argentina and were invited to open missions in the U.S. only a little over ten years ago -- the priests (IVE) have been in the U.S. for a little over twenty years. World wide there are currently 371 perpetually professed. (Usually it takes approximately seven to eight years from entrance to Final Profession.)

In addition, last year two of the South American provinces (not including Argentina) had forty invested in the habit as novices. (Unfortunately, I don't know how many will profess their First Vows this March.) And in the U.S. on December 14th 2009, fourteen sister were invested in the novitiate habit with four making First Profession.

God willing, they will all persevere if this is indeed their vocation.

Here are some numbers on the SSVM if anyone's interested: [url="http://www.servidoras.org/casas.asp"]SSVM en el Mundo[/url]
[/quote]

Thanks for this update and direct information. I wish that it were available on their US website.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='jkaands' date='07 January 2010 - 03:22 PM' timestamp='1262895741' post='2031911']
If an 18 year old wanted to enter one of the 'updated' orders, they would probably tell her to go to college and keep in touch. Their ministries are so specialized and demanding,they require a great deal of maturity, experience and judgment, not present in the typical 18 year old. Most require at least 2 years of work and preferably college--I thought that the 2 years of work was required (after high school) but apparently not.
[/quote]
yeah, 'cos it takes a lot of maturity, experience and judgement to become a rabid dissenter against the Magisterium of the Church

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='jkaands' date='07 January 2010 - 04:38 PM' timestamp='1262896693' post='2031932']
Thanks for this update and direct information. I wish that it were available on their US website.
[/quote]

I wish it was, too!

Currently, it looks like the [url="http://ssvmusa.org"]SSVM U.S. website[/url] is getting a "makeover".... so, here's hoping it will include the same information as their [url="http://servidoras.org"]international site[/url]! On the old U.S. website, it would include information AND numbers (and even new religious names in the case of investitures) of those being invested and professing vows.

Also, I suppose something to note about the SSVM is that they do not have a set entrance date. And even though there are "classes", sometimes Sisters in those classes will progress at different times depending on their discernment and when they entered. Some may have a longer postulancy or novitiate and because of this, they will be invested or profess vows at different times.

For example, my postulancy only lasted five days (yeeeeah.. I'm not sure HOW that happened, but it did! ) before I became a canonical novice, whereas another of my class had eight months. (I think now they probably have a longer "required" period of 6 - 12 months, which can be extended to two years.) Another example: a few sisters in one class began their canonical novitiate in October instead of September (or earlier), so generally they will not profess First Vows with the rest of the class, but until after they finish their canonical year. This might mean they would have to stay in the novitiate a little longer before moving on to the Juniorate with the rest of their class. And this is also one of the reasons why some sisters might profess their First Vows in December instead of the "normal" September or October. (At least in the U.S. Province.)

I've wondered if this is something that happens with other Orders... maybe that would help account for additional investitures/professions that you don't often hear about with the major feast days of professions and investitures?

Anyhoo, the male branch (The Institute of the Incarnate Word) has a much more thorough [url="http://www.iveamerica.org/WEBbean.cbl?54X3=108&3Y43=200&22Q1=2012&lang=1&781=144&5Y76=TK14UDQL&WPG=1135"]website[/url]. (Then again, they've always tended to be a tad more tech-savvy than the Sisters.)

Hmm... I hope that helps, and makes sense.

lc

[jkaands]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='07 January 2010 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1262898501' post='2031962']
I wish it was, too!

Currently, it looks like the [url="http://ssvmusa.org"]SSVM U.S. website[/url] is getting a "makeover".... so, here's hoping it will include the same information as their [url="http://servidoras.org"]international site[/url]! On the old U.S. website, it would include information AND numbers (and even new religious names in the case of investitures) of those being invested and professing vows.

Also, I suppose something to note about the SSVM is that they do not have a set entrance date. And even though there are "classes", sometimes Sisters in those classes will progress at different times depending on their discernment and when they entered. Some may have a longer postulancy or novitiate and because of this, they will be invested or profess vows at different times.

For example, my postulancy only lasted five days (yeeeeah.. I'm not sure HOW that happened, but it did! ) before I became a canonical novice, whereas another of my class had eight months. (I think now they probably have a longer "required" period of 6 - 12 months, which can be extended to two years.) Another example: a few sisters in one class began their canonical novitiate in October instead of September (or earlier), so generally they will not profess First Vows with the rest of the class, but until after they finish their canonical year. This might mean they would have to stay in the novitiate a little longer before moving on to the Juniorate with the rest of their class. And this is also one of the reasons why some sisters might profess their First Vows in December instead of the "normal" September or October. (At least in the U.S. Province.)

I've wondered if this is something that happens with other Orders... maybe that would help account for additional investitures/professions that you don't often hear about with the major feast days of professions and investitures?

Anyhoo, the male branch (The Institute of the Incarnate Word) has a much more thorough [url="http://www.iveamerica.org/WEBbean.cbl?54X3=108&3Y43=200&22Q1=2012&lang=1&781=144&5Y76=TK14UDQL&WPG=1135"]website[/url]. (Then again, they've always tended to be a tad more tech-savvy than the Sisters.)

Hmm... I hope that helps, and makes sense.

lc
[/quote]

Thanks, LC!

Oy. Rolling entrance dates. Well, [i]Nashville[/i] is very organized and does things by class, it appears. However, the Alton Franciscans appeared to have two classes of postulants--two each--a couple of years back.
For the others, it's wait to enter or enter at some unknown date--when they or the order is ready or when it works with the church calendar. I think that varying the length of the postulancy/novitiate, and especially the temporary vows--is common. Some institutes describe in on their websites.

A personal question, and obviously you don't have to answer it. I assume that you aren't SSVM now. You had a very short postulancy. Do you think that it affected the outcome?

---for the record, the [i]men's[/i] Benedictines in the US often have a short postulancy, days to a few weeks, and then the canonical novitiate for a year and THEN temporary vows, usually for 3 years. Of course it will depend on the individual and the institute. But this definitely diverges from the women's institutes, of all kinds, habited or not.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='jkaands' date='07 January 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1262896329' post='2031926']
I was not aware that the subject of this thread was sexual abuse by American nuns. I am not denying that this may exist or have existed, certainly verbal and physical abuse did, but I am not aware of sexual abuse. If it existed and was widespread, I am very surprised that the lay press hasn't gotten ahold of it, as it did the pedophilia crisis. The press loves stuff like this. I don't know why you are raising this subject. Your link is over 5 years old, by the way. Anything more recent?

Similarly I was not aware that the financial situation of American nuns requires an investigation. There have been no allegations of embezzlement or theft that I have heard about and no reason to suspect any. The occasional priest is so accused, so the press certainly isn't hesitant about publishing these cases.

Rome has a lot on its hands besides investigating the finances of American nuns. Regarding their rules and constitutions, the institutes are submitting these to Rome.
[/quote]

That is not the subject of this thread. You raised it first however when you claimed the sisters had nothing to do with it. Hence my remark. There may indeed be more recent stuff out there and the press may not be covering it. I think Rome should indeed look at all aspects of orders affiliated with the LCWR. God only knows what they have been financing in their long lowdown battle against Catholic truth. Embezzlement and other accounting irregularities go unnoticed when they are not audited. You affected an air of omniscience about the finances of these "orders". And indeed about the "asbestos content" of their buildings! Clearly, you have no such knowledge. As to their "response" to Rome, that has been slow and characterized by the usual condescension and arrogance they have shown so many times and for so many decades.

S.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='07 January 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1262905906' post='2032075']
That is not the subject of this thread. You raised it first however when you claimed the sisters had nothing to do with it. Hence my remark. There may indeed be more recent stuff out there and the press may not be covering it. I think Rome should indeed look at all aspects of orders affiliated with the LCWR. God only knows what they have been financing in their long lowdown battle against Catholic truth. Embezzlement and other accounting irregularities go unnoticed when they are not audited. You affected an air of omniscience about the finances of these "orders". And indeed about the "asbestos content" of their buildings! Clearly, you have no such knowledge. As to their "response" to Rome, that has been slow and characterized by the usual condescension and arrogance they have shown so many times and for so many decades.

S.
[/quote]

Down, boy!

[Skinzo]

[quote name='jkaands' date='07 January 2010 - 07:12 PM' timestamp='1262905979' post='2032077']
Down, boy!
[/quote]


That's not much of a response, but I wasn't expecting much.

S.

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='jkaands' date='07 January 2010 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1262902290' post='2032020']
Thanks, LC!

...

A personal question, and obviously you don't have to answer it. I assume that you aren't SSVM now. You had a very short postulancy. Do you think that it affected the outcome?

[/quote]

No problem!

And to answer your question, I don't think my short postulancy really affected the outcome. One classmate of mine entered the day before and became a novice when I did -- she's still there. God willing, it's her vocation and she will persevere. And another classmate entered the same day I did -- she left after six months and is now (as of last August 22nd) very happily married.

As for myself, I think it just took me a few [i]years [/i] being there to realize my vocation is not to the completely active/apostolic life, but rather the semi-contemplative life. The SSVMs have two branches: apostolic and contemplative (cloistered). There's no middle-ground. I need that balance the semi-contemplative vocation offers. Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on the way you look at it) my superiors knew I wasn't called to the active life before I did. It came as a total shocker to me, but it was obviously God's will. Blessed be God!

lc

[Skinzo]

[quote name='jkaands' date='04 January 2010 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1262660536' post='2029901']
There is an editorial in the NCR on the visitation, mainly about the manner in which it was instituted. I wish that this current visitation could be compared with the previous one regarding the seminaries in the US. This visitation was unannounced; it took the orders by surprise. One reason is that many/ (most?) of the orders send women to Rome or have women religious living there who are, or try to be in communication with the Vatican, should any questions come up. None apparently had come up until the visitation. This is led by ONE nun, a member of an order with few in the US, who is not known to anyone here. There was a large and long questionnaire, regarding age, money, financial holdings and management, and details on religious practice and the number in formation. The plan was to collate all of this--the nuns were supposed to PAY for the investigators--room, board, transportation--and send off a [i]secret [/i]report to Rome regarding their findings and conclusions. No discussions with the congregations over their impressions.
[/quote]

Your statement here distorts the entire background to this investigation. The orders were asked in 2001 to respond to three areas of concern to the Vatican: the 1994 apostolic letter Ordinatio sacerdotalis, the 2000 declaration Dominus Jesus from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and “the problem of homosexuality.”

Cardinal Levada informed conference leaders: “Given both the tenor and the doctrinal content of various addresses given at the annual assemblies of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious in the intervening years, this Dicastery can only conclude that the problems which had motivated its request in 2001 continue to be present.”
The Vatican waited patiently but in vain for the arrogant LCWR to respond. It has been eight years! The nuns never did respond but continued on their merry way, dissing Church authority in their usual high handed way. It should not have taken them by surprise but of course they have never seemed to be terribly sharp. Arrogance does that to you. Perhaps it's time they decided just what they are and "sojourned" into their "post Christian" "future" to paraphrase Laurie Brink's bizarre keynote address to the LCWR.

S.