Women Religious Not Complying With Vatican Study

[jkaands]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='07 January 2010 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1262907080' post='2032091']
Your statement here distorts the entire background to this investigation. The orders were asked in 2001 to respond to three areas of concern to the Vatican: the 1994 apostolic letter Ordinatio sacerdotalis, the 2000 declaration Dominus Jesus from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and “the problem of homosexuality.”

Cardinal Levada informed conference leaders: “Given both the tenor and the doctrinal content of various addresses given at the annual assemblies of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious in the intervening years, this Dicastery can only conclude that the problems which had motivated its request in 2001 continue to be present.”
The Vatican waited patiently but in vain for the arrogant LCWR to respond. It has been eight years! The nuns never did respond but continued on their merry way, dissing Church authority in their usual high handed way. It should not have taken them by surprise but of course they have never seemed to be terribly sharp. Arrogance does that to you. Perhaps it's time they decided just what they are and "sojourned" into their "post Christian" "future" to paraphrase Laurie Brink's bizarre keynote address to the LCWR.

S.
[/quote]

I have heard no discussions regarding the 2001 questions or lack of answers. What I have heard is that many of these orders have sisters in Rome who tried to talk to contacts in the Vatican with no results. There is a hiatus between 2001 and now--9+ years during which the previous pope was deteriorating in health, which may have put things on hold.

I dislike your angry and hostile tone, but this is typical of Phatmass. Posts on Phatmass tend to be lame, silly or hostile. Your is the latter. There is no reason for this.

Regarding your niggling about 'asbestos', it is well-known that 19th c. buildings were full of it. In additionm, looking at the pictures of these monstrous convents, one can imagine how difficult they would be to heat, clean, light, and retrofit.

Rome does not support the LCWR congregations financially. They support themselves. And as the last of the large groups of entrants in the 1960's die out, there will be less need for SOAR funds. What happens to them may be what happened to the Immaculate Heart of Mary Sisters in LA. After Cardinal McIntyre threw down the gauntlet, most of the sisters, and certainly the best and brightest, left. A few remained. The laicized nuns founded the Immaculate Heart Community, which eventually became an ecumenical community for all, including families, with a number of good works. It is thriving. The remnant is dying out.

Good riddance, you say. Maybe so. But there is[i] no way [/i]that there will be a recrudescence of religious life as there was before. There are only a FEW orders, new or small, which are actively growing. The exiting orders are going to leave a gap which no amount of yelling can ever fill.

[Ave Maria Totus Tuus]

[quote name='jkaands' date='07 January 2010 - 02:59 PM' timestamp='1262894342' post='2031880']
From what I've been able to figure out, the Nashville OP have one year in postulancy, two years in novitiate, the first being the required canonical year, then temporary vows for two years, then final. So there are three years in community from entrance as a postulant until temporary vows. With a five year time period for the average entrant, this means that someone can enter at 18 and be finally professed at 23, which sounds young to me. Yes, people do get married at that age, but a lot of people also get divorced who marry at 23.

The use of the words "recruit" and "recruitment" is semantics. For me, growing up before Vat II, sisters were definitely recruited, believe me.
[/quote]

Actually, this is how the formation works for Nashville. One year in postulancy, one year as a canonical novice, and then after that year, First Profession is made for a period of three years. After the three years as temporary professed, the vows are again renewed for two years. Following seven years in community is Final Profession.

Sorry if I come across as "defensive" about this particular community. I'm a good friend of the Sisters and lived in Nashville during college, visiting them and their Motherhouse very often. I'm kind of a big fan.

[Ave Maria Totus Tuus]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='06 January 2010 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1262833633' post='2031347']
What are the sources for the figures cited here? It would be helpful if we provide links to clear up such discrepancies. This article notes there are 45 novices and it is also encouraging to hear the average age of the Sisters is 36! Quite a contrast to the so-called "liberal" nuns.
See: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/nashville_dominicans_preparing_for_large_postulant_class/

S.
[/quote]

That article speaks of "45 women in initial formation program." This refers to the whole Novitiate. For Nashville, the Novitiate consists of Postulants (1st year), Novices (all whom are canonical, which is your 2nd year), and your first two years as a temporary professed (3rd and 4th years). Every religious community is different, but this is how the Nashville Dominicans have it organized.

Hope this clears things up!

[CatherineM]

I don't think it should matter that the Vatican doesn't financially support these orders. The Vatican doesn't financially support our parish, but if we started doing something not in line with church teachings, the Vatican could certainly shut us down. It might take some time though. They have many more parishes than ours to deal with.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='jkaands' date='07 January 2010 - 07:52 PM' timestamp='1262908378' post='2032101']
I have heard no discussions regarding the 2001 questions or lack of answers. What I have heard is that many of these orders have sisters in Rome who tried to talk to contacts in the Vatican with no results. There is a hiatus between 2001 and now--9+ years during which the previous pope was deteriorating in health, which may have put things on hold.

I dislike your angry and hostile tone, but this is typical of Phatmass. Posts on Phatmass tend to be lame, silly or hostile. Your is the latter. There is no reason for this.

Regarding your niggling about 'asbestos', it is well-known that 19th c. buildings were full of it. In additionm, looking at the pictures of these monstrous convents, one can imagine how difficult they would be to heat, clean, light, and retrofit.

Rome does not support the LCWR congregations financially. They support themselves. And as the last of the large groups of entrants in the 1960's die out, there will be less need for SOAR funds. What happens to them may be what happened to the Immaculate Heart of Mary Sisters in LA. After Cardinal McIntyre threw down the gauntlet, most of the sisters, and certainly the best and brightest, left. A few remained. The laicized nuns founded the Immaculate Heart Community, which eventually became an ecumenical community for all, including families, with a number of good works. It is thriving. The remnant is dying out.

Good riddance, you say. Maybe so. But there is[i] no way [/i]that there will be a recrudescence of religious life as there was before. There are only a FEW orders, new or small, which are actively growing. The exiting orders are going to leave a gap which no amount of yelling can ever fill.
[/quote]

I'm afraid you are indeed quite wrong on a number of points as you simply don't bother to research even in your favorite newspaper, the National Catholic Reporter. You have heard no discussion "regarding the 2001 questions or lack of answers". Please note the following quotes from NCR and Cardinal Levada:
"The Vatican assessment has become necessary, according to Levada, because at the 2001 meeting between the women’s leadership conference and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which took place in Rome, the women were invited “to report on the initiatives taken or planned” to promote the reception of three areas of Vatican doctrinal concern: the 1994 apostolic letter Ordinatio sacerdotalis, the 2000 declaration Dominus Jesus "Given both the tenor and the doctrinal content of various addresses given at the annual assemblies of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious in the intervening years, this Dicastery can only conclude that the problems which had motivated its request in 2001 continue to be present.”
See: http://ncronline.org/news/women/vatican-investigates-us-women-religious-leadership
There quite simply is no record of a response by the LCWR to Vatican concerns expressed in 2001. At no time has the LCWR said they were not able to meet with anyone in Rome. If you have links to back up what you are saying then kindly post them, otherwise they are simply empty assertions.
As to the subject of asbestos if you do some research you will see it was not commonly in use in the construction industry until the 1940's. My late brother died from mesothelioma so I'm well aware of the history.
It does not matter that Rome does not financially support the LCWR, its authority rests on the supreme disciplinary authority of the pope which perhaps you are not familiar with.
As to my "angry" tone, it of course angers any faithful Catholic to hear of the scandalous positions taken by the LCWR. Perhaps you are a theological dissenter yourself and so it does not bother you. Many Catholics however have had to contend with "liberal" sisters who destroyed their children's faith with their erroneous teachings so it is really not surpring that there should be some anger here. Many are home-schooled now because of the mess in our schools thanks to sisters who lost their way. And so on.
The fact remains that the traditional orders are indeed attracting vocations while the "liberals" are not. If you find Phatmass so lame, then why post here? As to the IHM community its "ecumenism" would not likely be anything akin to the authentic ecumenism of the Catholic church. I don't think any community which has left the Catholic church should be described as "thriving". That you describe that way is revealing of what you think.
The LCWR simply does not understand Vatican II as I guess you don't either.

S.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Skinzo

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Ave Maria Totus Tuus' date='07 January 2010 - 08:20 PM' timestamp='1262910019' post='2032114']
That article speaks of "45 women in initial formation program." This refers to the whole Novitiate. For Nashville, the Novitiate consists of Postulants (1st year), Novices (all whom are canonical, which is your 2nd year), and your first two years as a temporary professed (3rd and 4th years). Every religious community is different, but this is how the Nashville Dominicans have it organized.

Hope this clears things up!
[/quote]

Thanks. That is helpful. And they have 23 postulants this Fall. I wonder how may other orders can match that?

S.

[Guest heldenoboe]

I've been following this thread somewhat and think that there may be some confusion about the visitation and the investigation.

There are two things occurring right now. The OP is referring to the Apostolic Visitation initiated from the Congregation for Religious and Cardinal Rode. In regard to this visitation, many sisters have openly criticized its methods and publicly stated that they will not comply willingly. It is true that a long questionnaire was administered (available to the public) as questions for discussion. This questionnaire did not require submission. A later questionnaire (not made public) based on these discussion questions was required. It was asked by the Congregation for Religious that the orders chosen for on-site visitation provide hospitality, when possible, for the visitators to cut down on the expense of the visitation. As far as I know, there are actually no reliable numbers of who complied and who didn't. All apostolic orders in the US are required to participate in the questionnaire; not all will have on-site visitations. The stated purpose of the Apostolic Visitation is to assess the quality of religious life lived in the United States by the canonically established institutes of religious life. It is meant to be positive.

The other "event" is the doctrinal investigation headed by the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith and Cardinal Levada. This is completely separate from the Apostolic Visitation. They happen to coincide, but they are not related. This is the investigation that is following up on the 2001 questions and the difficulties of the LCWR presidential addresses and conferences. No questionnaires or documents regarding this investigation have been made public. The investigation pertains only to the LCWR member communities. There has been very little publicity or news from the LCWR or CDF on this investigation. Most of what we hear in the news is about the Visitation.

Hope this clarification helps!

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='17 January 2010 - 09:16 AM' timestamp='1263734164' post='2039064']
Thanks. That is helpful. And they have 23 postulants this Fall. I wonder how may other orders can match that?

S.
[/quote]

As of May 2009, the SSVM has 103 aspirants (one can enter the aspirancy many years before becoming a postulant -- the U.S. doesn't have an aspirancy, at least not yet), 35 postulants, and 108 novices in formation world wide. [url="http://www.servidoras.org/casas.asp"]Source[/url].

Pretty spiffy.

[MithLuin]

[quote name='jkaands' date='05 January 2010 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1262717476' post='2030251']No information regarding the Sisters of Life, Virgin of Matara or Salesian final professions.

When one cites a horde of young nuns, one should consider only final professions and ends up usually referring to Ann Arbor or Nashville or perhaps one of the others mentioned above. After that the numbers thin out rapidly.
[/quote]

I agree that final vows is more significant than number in formation, but certainly post Vatican II, many fully professed sisters have left their orders. Final vows [i]shouldn't[/i] be broken, but that doesn't mean they aren't. [Just like wedding vows [i]shouldn't[/i] be broken either.] So, if you want to understand the growth of an order, a lot of different data should be looked at, not just that one point.

I also don't think it is right to view those who leave during formation as 'dropouts' as if there was some failure on the part of the individual or the community. You don't marry every person you date, but you do learn a lot about yourself from those relationships. Formation is like that; it's a time of discernment and courting one another, as it were. Sometimes, it's a good fit, and a person will persevere through to final vows. But even if a person leaves during that time, they were at least seriously considering the possibility, so that counts as something.

As for the Sisters of Life, I attended their profession of vows this summer ('09). Two sisters made perpetual professions, and three made first vows. I have their names if you would like them.... I should also mention that I just happened to be passing through that day; they aren't keeping this information under wraps by any means! Sorry you weren't able to find the info easily.

I have a cousin taking final vows with the Nashville Dominicans this summer, at the age of 29. She entered in 2003, after graduating from college, and took her first vows in the summer of '05. As you can see, it's a 6 year process. My sister is currently an aspirant with one of those small orders of habited sisters no one has ever heard of . She'll be a postulant soon, and the group has one novice. Since they only have a few houses in the US, this is fine for them, though of course they hope to have more vocations soon. One sister took perpetual vows this past summer.

Modest growth is still growth. It's the groups with [i]no[/i] vocations (and no members under the age of 50) who are in dire straits. Who will continue their legacy? Motherhouses become nursing homes, provinces (then orders) merge, and the numbers dwindle away to nothing. It's very sad, and it's worth considering what attracts the new vocations to some groups but not to others. Community life is likely to be a significant factor there, not just the ministries or whether or not the habit is worn. After all, the Little Sisters of the Poor care for the elderly, and yet they are not as bad off as many of the other groups. You wouldn't think nursing homes would be an appealing ministry to young twenty-somethings, and yet they currently have young people in formation.

Religious life is going through a period of change. The Church works in generations, not years. We are still in the midst of the 'turnover' from Vatican II. We still have people who are unhappy with the changes and want to go back to the way everything was before. And we have people who feel frustrated that not enough has changed. But as far as religious life is concerned -- a group must have a clear vision of what it means to live out the calling of religious life. If the community cannot nurture this vision in its members, it will unravel (from either end - this isn't about liberal/conservative). It did not surprise me that the questionnaire caused sisters to consider their identity; that was likely the entire point.

People can view the Vatican as oppressive and authoritative if they choose; even backwards and medieval, as it must surely seem to many modern Americans. But it would probably be more helpful to understand that the Vatican is sincerely concerned about the future of religious life in the USA, and wants to do what it can to keep these orders from dying out. That should be a common goal.

Canon law is not designed to be punitive. It is designed to draw people into communion with the Church. Likewise, this Visitation isn't meant as a disciplinary action; it's designed to trigger some honest self-reflection so that communities can move forward, not grow stagnant and lose track of their founding charism.

I suppose being defensive about it and making an effort to be uncooperative is simply human nature, but I think things would go better if communities considered what good could come out of this rather than just being obstinate. Oh well; their loss.

Edited January 17, 2010 by MithLuin

[jkaands]

[quote name='MithLuin' date='17 January 2010 - 02:01 PM' timestamp='1263758471' post='2039188']
I agree that final vows is more significant than number in formation, but certainly post Vatican II, many fully professed sisters have left their orders. Final vows [i]shouldn't[/i] be broken, but that doesn't mean they aren't. [Just like wedding vows [i]shouldn't[/i] be broken either.] So, if you want to understand the growth of an order, a lot of different data should be looked at, not just that one point.

I also don't think it is right to view those who leave during formation as 'dropouts' as if there was some failure on the part of the individual or the community. You don't marry every person you date, but you do learn a lot about yourself from those relationships. Formation is like that; it's a time of discernment and courting one another, as it were. Sometimes, it's a good fit, and a person will persevere through to final vows. But even if a person leaves during that time, they were at least seriously considering the possibility, so that counts as something.

As for the Sisters of Life, I attended their profession of vows this summer ('09). Two sisters made perpetual professions, and three made first vows. I have their names if you would like them.... I should also mention that I just happened to be passing through that day; they aren't keeping this information under wraps by any means! Sorry you weren't able to find the info easily.

I have a cousin taking final vows with the Nashville Dominicans this summer, at the age of 29. She entered in 2003, after graduating from college, and took her first vows in the summer of '05. As you can see, it's a 6 year process. My sister is currently an aspirant with one of those small orders of habited sisters no one has ever heard of . She'll be a postulant soon, and the group has one novice. Since they only have a few houses in the US, this is fine for them, though of course they hope to have more vocations soon. One sister took perpetual vows this past summer.

Modest growth is still growth. It's the groups with [i]no[/i] vocations (and no members under the age of 50) who are in dire straits. Who will continue their legacy? Motherhouses become nursing homes, provinces (then orders) merge, and the numbers dwindle away to nothing. It's very sad, and it's worth considering what attracts the new vocations to some groups but not to others. Community life is likely to be a significant factor there, not just the ministries or whether or not the habit is worn. After all, the Little Sisters of the Poor care for the elderly, and yet they are not as bad off as many of the other groups. You wouldn't think nursing homes would be an appealing ministry to young twenty-somethings, and yet they currently have young people in formation.

Religious life is going through a period of change. The Church works in generations, not years. We are still in the midst of the 'turnover' from Vatican II. We still have people who are unhappy with the changes and want to go back to the way everything was before. And we have people who feel frustrated that not enough has changed. But as far as religious life is concerned -- a group must have a clear vision of what it means to live out the calling of religious life. If the community cannot nurture this vision in its members, it will unravel (from either end - this isn't about liberal/conservative). It did not surprise me that the questionnaire caused sisters to consider their identity; that was likely the entire point.

People can view the Vatican as oppressive and authoritative if they choose; even backwards and medieval, as it must surely seem to many modern Americans. But it would probably be more helpful to understand that the Vatican is sincerely concerned about the future of religious life in the USA, and wants to do what it can to keep these orders from dying out. That should be a common goal.

Canon law is not designed to be punitive. It is designed to draw people into communion with the Church. Likewise, this Visitation isn't meant as a disciplinary action; it's designed to trigger some honest self-reflection so that communities can move forward, not grow stagnant and lose track of their founding charism.

I suppose being defensive about it and making an effort to be uncooperative is simply human nature, but I think things would go better if communities considered what good could come out of this rather than just being obstinate. Oh well; their loss.
[/quote]

I don't disagree with anything you write.

There's no failure in leaving religious life before final vows. It's discernment, after all, and I'll bet that a lot of those leaving gained very useful experience. But there are people who have the impression that there is a [i]lot of growth[/i] in habited communities and this is not true. There is a lot of growth in a [i]few [/i]communities, [i]some [/i]growth in others. There appear to be large novitiates, with many leaving before final profession. The Sisters of Life aren't hiding anything; they just don't have any formation news or updates on their website.

My point is that there are too many Dominican, Franciscan and Benedictine communities--that they were founded in the US during the most recent heyday of religious life. Many of these have vanished or merged and more will do so to end up with a reasonable number. There [i]are[/i] people entering these communities, but sometimes it's hard to find the formation information. The websites are hard to navigate and formation news is buried in chronological fashion under everything else. I emailed one community to ask them to separate out the obituaries from the formation news! This is a mistake that Nashville would never make. The order appreciated my suggestion. Many orders really need professional website designers and marketers.

Quite a few of the older non-habited orders are complying with the Vatican's investigation, I think. Also, apparently all who aren't are sending copies of their most recent constitutions. They are objecting to the secrecy, and I don't blame them. For example, if I were a member of one of the communities being visited, I would appreciate a copy of the final conclusions and recommendations, no matter what it said.

[jkaands]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='24 November 2009 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1259119442' post='2008980']

These people at one point professed to be the "bride of Christ",so in some ways its a tragedy, but in other ways it will be good to know in truthfulness who is part of the problem, and who is part of the solution.
[/quote]

I don't think that it is traditional for sisters, at least Benedictine ones, [i]to profess[/i] to be a 'bride of Christ"--this issue is discussed elsewhere.

[jkaands]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='17 January 2010 - 10:36 AM' timestamp='1263746208' post='2039112']
As of May 2009, the SSVM has 103 aspirants (one can enter the aspirancy many years before becoming a postulant -- the U.S. doesn't have an aspirancy, at least not yet), 35 postulants, and 108 novices in formation world wide. [url="http://www.servidoras.org/casas.asp"]Source[/url].

Pretty spiffy.


[/quote]

[i]Worldwide.[/i] Especially in Argentina. There appear to be about 4 active apostolic orders growing rapidly in the US: Nashville, Ann Arbor, SSVM, Salesians--little information about the last. Sisters of Life have a large novitiate, but don't appear to be producing substantial numbers in final vows, but, again, not much information on their website or on religiousministries.com or religiouslife.com

BTW, the 31st ed. of Guide to Relgious Ministries is coming out soon.

[MithLuin]

Yes, I agree that people can be a bit more enthusiastically hopeful than is called for. But I also think there is a difference between [i]modest[/i] growth...and dying out altogether.

The School Sisters of Notre Dame (SSND) are an example of religious sisters who do not wear habits, and often do not live in community, rather living in apartments, with only a few together. Traditionally focused on education, they do have other outreach programs as well.

[url=http://www.ssnd.org/External/pg_bec_community_finalvows.htm]HERE[/url] is the website where they show those who have recently taken final vows in the community. As you can see, none of these are young women. One was married for 20 years; another has 30 years of experience in education. Sr. Kathy Ravn is 55. At 37, Sr. Bridget is the youngest of the group. And these four women represent the entire United States. While they are growing in Africa, they have only three women in temporary vows in the US. Again, [i]not[/i] young women; one is a great-grandmother.

An order that has a few young women take final vows every few years is still continuing its legacy and tradition, even if its growth is limited. A group like I have just highlighted...is dying. It's very sad. Two of my great-great-aunts were SSND; I was taught by SSNDs in elementary school, and I worked in the first SSND school in the US myself. The order has a great legacy, but they can't staff any of their own projects, they can't bring new blood in, and they can't afford to pay for all their elderly and retired sisters.

By contrast, the order my sister just joined has only 4-5 houses in the US, so a total of only about 20 sisters or so. For them to have a couple of people in formation means that they are just fine. They do not accept vocations older than 35. Her group is a variation of Franciscan sisters, but not the Martyr of St. George group. They're Polish; they're the ones who cared for JPII in the Vatican.


The Sisters for Life are a very new group. They will likely have larger classes of women taking final vows in the future; it does take time to go through formation, and not everyone is comfortable joining a 'start up'. They are essentially Dominican in character, and a very joyful group of young women. I would count them among 'significant growth' for the time being.



I agree that wanting to see the final report is a very reasonable request. After all, if there is an evaluation saying that something should be improved...shouldn't the community see that, eventually? What would be the point, otherwise?

Edited January 18, 2010 by MithLuin

[Totus Tuus]

I fail to see how a questionnaire could possibly be seen as the Vatican "doing violence" to women religious communities, as some sisters appear to believe.

Please, someone enlighten me. As a former religious who did encounter visitors from the Vatican, I never sensed a hint of anything but pastoral care...

[Saint Therese]

I think there is no valid reason for not wanting to comply with the Vatican study and visitation. I think their refusal or reluctance to submit to this is just clear evidence that the study/visitation is needed and that they indeed do have serious problems.