Resurrexi Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 [quote name='MIkolbe' date='01 December 2009 - 06:06 PM' timestamp='1259708760' post='2012761'] I think someone said this in a similar thread... but isn't H1N1 airborne? and if that is true, and if the concern is THIS high; why not just suspend Mass altogether? [/quote] It seems to me that Communion on the tongue poses no greater risk for catching H1N1 then just being in church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 [quote name='kafka' date='01 December 2009 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1259708823' post='2012762'] he does in cases of necessity. A bishop in Dallas, TX already decided to do this months ago. [/quote] I respectfully disagree with the good bishop's jurisprudential opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 the point in that case would be that anyone who is carrying the virus should not come to Mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zunshynn Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 (edited) [quote name='MIkolbe' date='01 December 2009 - 04:06 PM' timestamp='1259708760' post='2012761'] I think someone said this in a similar thread... but isn't H1N1 airborne? and if that is true, and if the concern is THIS high; why not just suspend Mass altogether? [/quote] True. I really find it interesting that no one has even suggested not using Extraordinary Ministers as a precaution. Couldn't do that of course. There may be a threat of H1 N1 but people still need to be able to get home in time for the game. But of course particles of the Sacred Host which are the Body and Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ falling to the ground off of people's hands... yeah... who cares about that? Not spreading the flu is much more important. [quote name='kafka' date='01 December 2009 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1259708823' post='2012762'] he does in cases of necessity. A bishop in Dallas, TX already decided to do this months ago. [/quote] And it was not his authority to do so either. Nor was it the authority of the dioceses in England that did so, to whom that letter from the CDF was directed. If the CDF maintained that the faithful still always had that right, clearly they do not agree that the Bishop has the right to do so. Edited December 1, 2009 by zunshynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 Sounds like a weird power struggle to me. In the meantime the faithful are the ones being hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 [quote name='zunshynn' date='01 December 2009 - 06:12 PM' timestamp='1259709157' post='2012767'] And it was not his authority to do so either. Nor was it the authority of the dioceses in England that did so, to whom that letter from the CDF was directed. If the CDF maintained that the faithful still always had that right, clearly they do not agree that the Bishop has the right to do so. [/quote] the bishop of Dallas was not barring a right. That is not what he intended. He was directing people to act in a certain way out of love of neighbor. I am not familiar with the English case. Alright I am done. This whole thread seems to be a politically driven, and I am just as conservative as the rest of you. Yet principles are greater than Church politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='01 December 2009 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1259709563' post='2012770'] Sounds like a weird power struggle to me. In the meantime the faithful are the ones being hurt. [/quote] exactly. A lot of antics going on in the right vs. left saga. The minds of the faithful are divided, and God is going to correct this soon. Edited December 1, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zunshynn Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 [quote name='kafka' date='01 December 2009 - 04:21 PM' timestamp='1259709694' post='2012771'] Yet principles are greater than Church politics. [/quote] Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 [quote name='zunshynn' date='01 December 2009 - 06:23 PM' timestamp='1259709806' post='2012773'] Exactly. [/quote] I doubt you interpreted what I said the way I meant it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted December 1, 2009 Author Share Posted December 1, 2009 (edited) [quote name='kafka' date='01 December 2009 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1259709694' post='2012771'] He was directing people to act in a certain way out of love of neighbor. [/quote] The faithful can just as easily catch H1N1 by receiving Communion in the hand (or perhaps even just by going into a church with other people in it) as they can by receiving Communion on the tongue. Edited December 1, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 [quote name='kafka' date='01 December 2009 - 06:26 PM' timestamp='1259709960' post='2012774'] I doubt you interpreted what I said the way I meant it [/quote] The story of my life. And, incidentally, the story of how I met my wife! But that's another tale that I will save for another topic at another time and in another place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='01 December 2009 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1259710116' post='2012777'] The story of my life. And, incidentally, the story of how I met my wife! But that's another tale that I will save for another topic at another time and in another place. [/quote] well God love us all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='01 December 2009 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1259710107' post='2012776'] The faithful can just as easily catch H1N1 by receiving Communion in the hand (or perhaps even just by going into a church with other people in it) as they can by receiving Communion on the tongue. [/quote] Let me state that I agree with both you and Nihil Obstat on this one. It is outside of this Bishop's authority to declare that individual Catholics in a state of grace cannot receive communion on the tongue. However, it is within this Bishop's authority (I believe) to stop a priest from celebrating Mass. If the Bishop believes that a particular parish or area is at an increased risk of disease, I would assume it is within this Bishop's authority to tell said priests to refrain from celebrating Mass and to ask the parishioners to attend another parish (which would likely be an OF Mass where it would be licit to receive in the hand) or to waive the parishioners Sunday Obligation if they are unable to attend Mass at a different parish. This whole situation saddens me. Reception of the Holy Eucharist on the tongue has been the norm in the Church for century upon century; and might I add centuries where disease and microbial communication occurred with even greater frequency and to even more devastating ends. Anecdotally, I would have to disagree with your assertion that reception on the hand poses an equal risk(and certainly not an increased risk) of transmission of H1N1. The influenza virus is primarily transmitted by respiratory droplets (from your breath); however, the risk of fomite transmission (that is on an stationary object) exists in the short term. Thus, in my clinical experience, I would suggest that for the priest to have his hand close the nose or mouth (where respiratory droplets are emanating) would increase the chances of transmission by contaminating his hands and then the hosts from parishioner to parishioner. Again, this is anectodal. To my knowledge there has never been empirical data collected on the transmission rates of disease between distribution of Holy Communion on the tongue versus on the hand. Obedience surpasses all sacrifice. The Bishop should be obedient to the Holy Father & Rome in matters where they have authority; the FSSP fathers should be obedient to the Bishop in matters where he has authority. The temporary cessation of Latin Masses seems like an unfortunate compromise of these realities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted December 1, 2009 Share Posted December 1, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='01 December 2009 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1259705973' post='2012721'] It is not permitted to receive in the hands in the EF Mass. It would be impossible for the FSSP to distribute Communion in the hands without being disobedient to the rubrics of the Liturgy. Also, the FSSP [i]is[/i] obeying the bishop now, as the FSSP priests are not celebrating Mass. They were also being obedient to the bishop before since, from what I heard, they were not having a people's Communion at all; only the celebrant was receiving Communion at their Masses. [/quote] Really? The Oratorians have recommended receiving in the hand due to the Archbishop of Toronto making the exact same decision concerning the H1N1 virus. It was a shock to me, but they're being obedient. But they also really really emphasised spiritual communion . That is their compromise. It's hard. But they said they don't want to cause scandal concerning obedience and appearing to be "unsanitary" to the outside world. Meh. Their intentions are there. I don't like the messing with the rubrics, but... I'll applaud them for attempting at obedience to the Bishop... Rock and a hard place. [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='01 December 2009 - 05:27 PM' timestamp='1259706463' post='2012727'] As much as it pains me to have to take a side in this, I have to agree with the choices the FSSP have made. The rubrics cannot be changed by my bishop, as I'm sure they're both aware. There's really nothing else to say besides that I believe that Bishop Henry is out of line in this isolated case, and that the FSSP are showing remarkable obedience and humility in not publicly celebrating Mass for the time being. [/quote] I agree with them too. [quote name='kafka' date='01 December 2009 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1259706581' post='2012728'] the rubrics are not immutable absolutes. This is foolish and imprudent of them. They are placing rubrics above love and obedience. Letter above the spirit. So hypothetically let us say that the EF were the only form celebrated in Quebec or wherever, and a deadly virus plagues the city. So the bishop according to his temporal magisterial authority decides that Holy Communion should only be distrubuted hand to hand in order to avoid spreading the plague. Do you really think that it would be wise for the priests to rebel and only offer Mass privately and deny the Eucharist to the people over a measly rubric? [/quote] Or, there can be spiritual communion [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='01 December 2009 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1259706801' post='2012732'] They are being obedient. They informed the bishop that they could not celebrate the Extraordinary Form (the only form they celebrate) according to his wishes. He said that in that case, they would not celebrate at all (publicly), and they are complying. Remember, these directives are only a couple weeks old. Maybe they continued to distribute on the tongue in the meantime, I'm not positive, but it was for at most a week or two in disobedience to the bishop (in the worst case scenario), and I'm quite sure that this difference in timelines is due entirely to them waiting for a reply from the bishop. (He is a busy man after all.) There is no disobedience being displayed, except perhaps to the rubrics of our Mass. I'd also like to emphasize how very much I hate having to criticize His Excellency. I find it extremely distasteful to have to do so like this. [/quote] Yeah. I agree. I hate criticizing my bishop(s) too. I guess it's good that the FSSP came up and said "hey, we can't follow this rule. Just so you know". I suppose it's good cause they're under a watchful eye by many because "Latin Mass" (aka EF of the Latin Mass) is = schismatic types/radtrads even though the FSSP are awesomely loyal to the magesterium. [quote name='zunshynn' date='01 December 2009 - 05:40 PM' timestamp='1259707256' post='2012740'] It is NOT a "measly rubric". And according to the 1962 missal, priests are bound under pain of sin by the rubrics, including to distribute Holy Communion on the tongue. The bishop does not have the authority to change that. Even when St. Isaac Jogues had the fingers that he was required to use by the rubrics of the mass to hold the Host, he was given dispensation by the Holy See, and the Holy See alone, to continue to celebrate mass. That is because no rubrics are measly rubrics. Even in the NO, however, Redemptionis Sacramentum is very clear in Paragraph 92 that "each of the faithful ALWAYS has the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue." [/quote] +1 if I had it. [quote name='zunshynn' date='01 December 2009 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1259707420' post='2012747'] [img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_kweFJm8yGGQ/Sw60x4VU22I/AAAAAAAADCM/1VgEgwyGiek/s1600/CommLetter7-24-09.jpg[/img] [url="http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/11/it-is-not-licit-to-deny-communion-on.html"]Source[/url] [/quote] Wow. That's from high up! [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='01 December 2009 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1259708506' post='2012760'] The 'threat' here is very, very questionable. I mean, if distributing on the tongue was [u]guaranteed[/u] to kill X numbers of people, then [i]maybe[/i] we can talk, but I'm inclined to believe that it's more dangerous to distribute on the hand in any case. This is no emergency though. This is preemptive action based on hysteria and very loose speculation. [/quote] Yes. Same as in the Toronto Archdiocese. [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='01 December 2009 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1259709563' post='2012770'] Sounds like a weird power struggle to me. In the meantime the faithful are the ones being hurt. [/quote] Yeah... it can appear to be that way. [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='01 December 2009 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1259710116' post='2012777'] The story of my life. And, incidentally, the story of how I met my wife! But that's another tale that I will save for another topic at another time and in another place. [/quote] I wanna hear the story! I want to drink from your well of wisdom! In another thread, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 The Church's auto persecution continues. May God forgive us for our sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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