HisChildForever Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 [quote name='God the Father' date='13 December 2009 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1260757374' post='2020009'] You're not saying they're bad people, but God is? Sounds like a disagreement if you ask me. Who's being contradictory now? [/quote] He has no right to label someone a bad person. Only God has that authority. No need to be so rude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='God the Father' date='13 December 2009 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1260757374' post='2020009'] It's called a [i]belief[/i] system because it's based on [i]beliefs[/i] and not [i]facts[/i]. If a belief system or religion is not justifiable, no one would practice it.[/quote] False. People can be irrational. Also justifications of something does not automatically make it a good justification in of itself. Your argument assumes that people are always believing in something that they have logically deducted which is false. [quote]If Jews can't justify Judaism then why would they be Jewish? It may not make sense to you or me based on our [i]beliefs[/i] but somehow they do it. In the case of humanity, belief in God [i]is[/i] optional, which is where atheists come from. I believe God determines what's right and wrong. Some people don't, and they justify it in any number of ways (see this thread). I believe el chupacabra terrorizes livestock in the more arid regions of the American continent. Some people don't. Those beliefs are different; in fact they are conflicting,[/quote] Conflicting does not mean both are right. Again your falling into the logical fallacy that as long as something makes sense to someone, then it must be a logical deduction. Case in point. [b]1. I have a rock in my yard. 2. There are no tigers in my yard. ________ Conclusion: The rock keeps tigers away from my yard.[/b] As you can tell, the rock is not really keeping the tigers away. Now according to your logic though, if I believe that, then it is justifiable. I have another example. [b]1. The German people need more room. 2. The Jewish people are taking up room and depriving the German people of opportunity. ______________________ Conclusion: Therefore the Jewish people must be "removed."[/b] Now, if I take the Jews to concentration camps and kill them, I have made more room for the Germans. I have just justified the Holocaust according to your logic. Does this mean that my justification is good or logical? In the same way, my justification does not mean it is made right. Hitler may have justified the Holocaust, but that doesn't mean it's a good or moral one. [quote]but I don't make a character judgment on that person's morality based upon conflicting beliefs. I don't know, maybe I haven't been paying attention but I didn't realize that puts me in conflict with my Church. You're not saying they're bad people, but God is? Sounds like a disagreement if you ask me. Who's being contradictory now? [/quote] What I meant by that is when I say someone is "bad" based on their morality, I am really echoing God's moral laws. So I am not the decision maker, God is the decision maker and I am merely the spokesperson in this sense. I am not contradicting, and you haven't explained yourself from your post on page 4 how God can be the ultimate arbiter yet somehow beliefs contrary to God are acceptable to him? If multiple beliefs are acceptable to God, then God's decisions on moral laws are meaningless making God pointless. Edited December 14, 2009 by eagle_eye222001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='13 December 2009 - 08:49 PM' timestamp='1260758983' post='2020029'] False. People can be irrational. Also justifications of something does not automatically make it a good justification in of itself. Your argument assumes that people are always believing in something that they have logically deducted which is false. Conflicting does not mean both are right. Again your falling into the logical fallacy that as long as something makes sense to someone, then it must be a logical deduction. Case in point. [b]1. I have a rock in my yard. 2. There are no tigers in my yard. ________ Conclusion: The rock keeps tigers away from my yard.[/b] As you can tell, the rock is not really keeping the tigers away. Now according to your logic though, if I believe that, then it is justifiable. I have another example. [b]1. The German people need more room. 2. The Jewish people are taking up room and depriving the German people of opportunity. ______________________ Conclusion: Therefore the Jewish people must be "removed."[/b] Now, if I take the Jews to concentration camps and kill them, I have made more room for the Germans. I have just justified the Holocaust according to your logic. Does this mean that my justification is good or logical? In the same way, my justification does not mean it is made right. Hitler may have justified the Holocaust, but that doesn't mean it's a good or moral one. What I meant by that is when I say someone is "bad" based on their morality, I am really echoing God's moral laws. So I am not the decision maker, God is the decision maker and I am merely the spokesperson in this sense. I am not contradicting, and you haven't explained yourself from your post on page 4 how God can be the ultimate arbiter yet somehow beliefs contrary to God are acceptable to him? If multiple beliefs are acceptable to God, then God's decisions on moral laws are meaningless making God pointless. [/quote] I can say the same thing about your logic: 1. Everything in the world is very complex. 2. I can't see any other way that things could have happened this way. Conclusion: There must be an invisible man in the sky responsible for all of this. Seems like a giant gap in logical reasoning to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1260757675' post='2020014'] If you say so. Nothing about my lifestyle has changed since I left the Church other than more free time on Sunday mornings and Holidays. [/quote] Stop screaming at me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='13 December 2009 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1260759743' post='2020033'] Stop screaming at me. [/quote] WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1260759993' post='2020039'] WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU? [/quote] Now you're being silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardillacid Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='13 December 2009 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1260760151' post='2020040'] Now you're being silly. [/quote] silly sally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='13 December 2009 - 09:09 PM' timestamp='1260760151' post='2020040'] Now you're being silly. [/quote] Nuh uh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 10:15 PM' timestamp='1260760537' post='2020045'] Nuh uh. [/quote] Please go stand by the stairs so I can protect you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='13 December 2009 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1260760671' post='2020046'] Please go stand by the stairs so I can protect you. [/quote] I love stairs… looking down all those steps. So far down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1260760951' post='2020050'] I love stairs… looking down all those steps. So far down... [/quote]PAK CHOOIE UNF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 <h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading">Danger, Will Robinson</h1>[quote name='Winchester' date='13 December 2009 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1260761032' post='2020051'] PAK CHOOIE UNF [/quote] <h1 id="firstHeading" class="firstHeading">Danger, Will Robinson</h1> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='13 December 2009 - 11:23 PM' timestamp='1260761032' post='2020051'] PAK CHOOIE UNF [/quote] Danger, Will Robinson, said the Model B-9, Class M-3 General Utility Non-Theorizing Environmental Control Robot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' date='13 December 2009 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1260756387' post='2019997'] And I'm telling you what that label means. It isn't the same as you calling yourself a Christian. You think you're all clever but you're really not. You're diverting the argument away from anything worth talking about. Get with it. [/quote] First off I'm totally clever and junk. Secondly, I've dealt with enough atheists to know what the label means. And this is what every atheist tells me "Get 10 atheists in a room and you'll get ten different definitions of the label" . So there is no "universal truth" about atheism. What I've gathered about you (who used to believe) is that you are an atheist because you cannot find sufficient evidence that there is a God. And unless you come back and tell me I'm wrong, I've let you define what being an atheist means. You've labeled yourself as such and defined that by what you don't believe. And you're right. It isn't the same as me calling myself a Catholic because I'm defining myself by what I DO believe. There are tons of things that I don't believe in. I don't believe red meat is bad for me. I don't believe Elvis is still alive. None of these things define my life. "Oh but atheism doesn't define my life" you might say. But then again, I was directing my comments at Varg. And atheism most assuredly defines his life. Its why he joined phatmass. You jumped in because you got all offended that I was arguing logically against atheism. (and he scampered away btw) So get all grumpy Fidei. Here's something that will really make you grumpy. I totally believe you're coming back to the faith someday. Why? Because in all the time you've posted here, you've always presented yourself as being a bright guy. I do pray that whatever beef you have with Jesus you'll be able to get reconciled soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varg Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 [quote name='hot stuff' date='14 December 2009 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1260816535' post='2020429'] But then again, I was directing my comments at Varg. And atheism most assuredly defines his life. Its why he joined phatmass. [/quote] Actually I joined Phatmass as a troll cos I was bored and angry. Now I'm not so bored and not so angry, so I dunno why I'm still here. [quote]I do pray that whatever beef you have with Jesus you'll be able to get reconciled soon.[/quote] I personally have no problem with Jesus, it's his fanclub that I have beef with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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