Arrogance In Catholic Forums

[Socrates]

[quote name='kafka' date='04 January 2010 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1262647484' post='2029678']
I've been participating on Catholic forums now for three or four years and find some trends disturbing and arrogant.

A. Some Catholics when discussing matters of the faith excessively quote sources and links whether they be magisterial or from theologians or from other supposed source of authority such as EWTN instead of explaining the Faith in there own words, and/or without explaining the meaning of the quote or link in its context. This supposedly adds weight to their posts when in fact it more times than less shows their ignorance and arrogance. In medieval times it was generally considered arrogant and ignorant to quote other sources when explaining and discussing the Faith.

B. Some Catholics speak in the name of the Church, in the name of the Magisterium, in the name of the CDF, in the name of the pope, in the name of Aquinas, etc, when they in fact should be speaking in their own name and expressing their own understanding. Again they think that by speaking in the name of the above this adds weight to their argument when in fact it shows their ignorance in not knowing their own place in the Church.[/quote]
There is nothing wrong or arrogant about quoting from authoritative sources (such as Church documents, the Cathechism, Church Doctors and Fathers, etc.) to back up one's point. Of course, quoting authoritative sources can be abused like everything else (deliberately quoting out of context, or quoting for no real purpose other than to show off one's learning, etc.)

However, it's stupid to make a broad condemnation of quoting from authoritative sources when discussing matters of Catholic Faith and morals. Though many don't like it, the Catholic Faith is a religion based on teaching authority, handed down by the Church's Magisterium. We're not Protestants, who hold our own personal opinions and interpretations of scripture and doctrine to be just as good as anyone else's.

While I'm far from a model of perfect humility, I am at least humble enough to know that ultimately in matters of faith, my own personal opinions mean jack squat, and that the teachings of the magisterium, doctors of the Church, etc., carry far more weight than whatever I might come up with. (And certainly more than the absurd charlatans and dubious "prophets" some on here like to hold up as theological authorities.)

It seems far more arrogant to me to tout one's own personal knowledge and "mature" understanding of the Faith to be superior to those ignorant geniuses who have to quote Church documents or the Cathechism when discussing matters of faith and morals.

The end of theological debate should not be some contest to show who has the best personal understanding, but to humbly submit to the authority of Christ's truth, as taught by His Church. Yes, there are matters where there is room for legitimate debate, but saying that quoting authoritative sources in itself is a sign of ignorance, and insisting on the superiority of one's own personal understanding shows neither humility nor wisdom.

[jkaands]

Generally speaking, I think that it's a sign of weakness to do extensive quoting, except of passages of scripture, which are usually not extensive. it suggests that you can't explain the points yourself, if you copy-cut-paste all the time, even though it's tempting sometimes. Better to read and digest the material, and then write, even if you have to use a word processor offline before you cut-copy-paste your own impressions!

[CatherineM]

When I have quoted church documents during debates around church, I find the people who object the most are those who don't have formal theological training. It's as if they believe you are rubbing the initials after your name in their faces. I have learned to leave church documents out of conversations unless someone starts throwing them around first.

[Totus Tuus]

A lot of you guys might be upset and think that Kafka didn't make good points in his post, but his accusation here that there is arrogance in Catholic forums has been proven by many of your responses. It's sad.

[Maggyie]

I too kind of get what he is saying... sometimes when nonbelievers observe Catholics discussing things they can get the impression that Documents (capital D) are what our faith is all about. The impression is that we will say things like "well if you look at Footnote Y on Document X, you can clearly see the phrasing implies Z, and Document X was written by Congregation A, which has much more authority to speak on this subject than Congregation B which came out with a much softer statement" instead of making reference to Jesus.

[organwerke]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='06 January 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1262785601' post='2030823']
A lot of you guys might be upset and think that Kafka didn't make good points in his post, but his accusation here that there is arrogance in Catholic forums has been proven by many of your responses. It's sad.
[/quote]

I completely agree with you.

[Moosey]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='06 January 2010 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1262785601' post='2030823']
A lot of you guys might be upset and think that Kafka didn't make good points in his post, but his accusation here that there is arrogance in Catholic forums has been proven by many of your responses. It's sad.
[/quote]
I was being ironic

[organwerke]

[quote name='Socrates' date='06 January 2010 - 03:20 AM' timestamp='1262740835' post='2030490']
There is nothing wrong or arrogant about quoting from authoritative sources (such as Church documents, the Cathechism, Church Doctors and Fathers, etc.) to back up one's point. Of course, quoting authoritative sources can be abused like everything else (deliberately quoting out of context, or quoting for no real purpose other than to show off one's learning, etc.)

However, it's stupid to make a broad condemnation of quoting from authoritative sources when discussing matters of Catholic Faith and morals. Though many don't like it, the Catholic Faith is a religion based on teaching authority, handed down by the Church's Magisterium. We're not Protestants, who hold our own personal opinions and interpretations of scripture and doctrine to be just as good as anyone else's.

While I'm far from a model of perfect humility, I am at least humble enough to know that ultimately in matters of faith, my own personal opinions mean jack squat, and that the teachings of the magisterium, doctors of the Church, etc., carry far more weight than whatever I might come up with. (And certainly more than the absurd charlatans and dubious "prophets" some on here like to hold up as theological authorities.)

It seems far more arrogant to me to tout one's own personal knowledge and "mature" understanding of the Faith to be superior to those ignorant geniuses who have to quote Church documents or the Cathechism when discussing matters of faith and morals.

The end of theological debate should not be some contest to show who has the best personal understanding, but to humbly submit to the authority of Christ's truth, as taught by His Church. Yes, there are matters where there is room for legitimate debate, but saying that quoting authoritative sources in itself is a sign of ignorance, and insisting on the superiority of one's own personal understanding shows neither humility nor wisdom.
[/quote]

Sorry but I think your post perfectly demonstrates that you didn't understand what kafka was saying, and it also demonstrates that he is right in what he says.
You -and not only you- speak as if you were certain that kafka, and other users who are simply asking for a bigger humility, and a bigger clarity (also when quoting Church's documents) don't want to submit theirselves to Church's Teaching.
You speak as if you were sure that those who ask for a bigger humility and calmness in the debates are those who don't say the true Church Doctrine, and that don't want to follow the Church's Doctrine.
THIS is an attitude that is arrogant and very irritating.
As kafka said (and I understood it) he started this thread as consequence of the thread about sanctification.
I was following that debate but I didn't write because I'm not an expert and I can't say for sure who is right.
I tried to have an answer for my doubts reading that thread, but, let me say I couldn't find any certain answer, for some users weren't clear, weren't reliable, weren't serious in their answers.
It seemed to me that some of them were more interested in show themselves they know more than others than to explain to the ignorant in the subject (as I am) the real Church's Teaching.
I repeat: I don't know if sanctification is infallible or not, I think I heard sometimes (who remember when and where...) that it isn't, but I'm not sure, and, at the same time, my "opinion" and my "personal sensibility" makes me think that sanctification is infallible.
But, returning to this thread, if you read the "sanctification" thread you can easily see how litlle it is clear, and, also, how many off topic answers there are, and how much arrogance instead there is.
I repeat: if you perfectly know the Church's Doctrine, you haven't to be arrogant.
And the persons who are asking for a bigger calmness aren't necessarily unfaithful.
Maybe they are simply "ignorant" because they didn't study that subject.

[goldenchild17]

If it is a sign of ignorance to follow what the Church and her greatest minds have fleshed out for us on the doctrines then let me go borrow the arse's head from Bottom. I'd much rather be like Titania and be in love and be faithful to the Church no matter how stupid it makes me look, rather than open my own mouth and my own mind and let it be known just how much more stupid my own ideas really are.

(yes I know I purposely murdered a literary reference and mixed in cliche in one go. live with it )

Edited January 6, 2010 by goldenchild17

[organwerke]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='06 January 2010 - 06:20 PM' timestamp='1262794852' post='2030863']
If it is a sign of ignorance to follow what the Church and her greatest minds have fleshed out for us on the doctrines then let me go borrow the arse's head from Bottom. I'd much rather be like Titania and be in love and be faithful to the Church no matter how stupid it makes me look, rather than open my own mouth and my own mind and let it be known just how much more stupid my own ideas really are.

(yes I know I purposely murdered a literary reference and mixed in cliche in one go. live with it )
[/quote]

I think you didn't understand the sense of this thread, nobody here is blaming those who follow the Church, on the contrary.
Then, to say the things with your own words doesn't mean that you say your opinions (why do ALL think and understand so?), but that, instead of doing a "copy-paste" you refer the content of a document using your own words (and of course you can mention document you refer to).

[Lil Red]

+JMJ+
[quote name='hot stuff' date='05 January 2010 - 04:24 PM' timestamp='1262733884' post='2030429']
It looks exactly like a Star Trek datapad
[/quote]
well, there's the second strike against it.

[quote name='Norseman82' date='05 January 2010 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1262736271' post='2030443']So, perhaps limiting the quotations to relevant parts of the source or bolding them, or when providing a link to a source stating "relevant part begins at point X" might help in "cutting to the chase".[/quote]
good point.

[quote name='kafka' date='05 January 2010 - 05:25 PM' timestamp='1262737501' post='2030455'] At the very worst now I have to practice my own words, so at the very least it will assist me, and I hoped it would assist the rest of us here in our dealings with each other.[/quote]


[quote name='Socrates' date='05 January 2010 - 06:20 PM' timestamp='1262740835' post='2030490']
There is nothing wrong or arrogant about quoting from authoritative sources (such as Church documents, the Cathechism, Church Doctors and Fathers, etc.) to back up one's point. Of course, quoting authoritative sources can be abused like everything else (deliberately quoting out of context, or quoting for no real purpose other than to show off one's learning, etc.)

However, it's stupid to make a broad condemnation of quoting from authoritative sources when discussing matters of Catholic Faith and morals. Though many don't like it, the Catholic Faith is a religion based on teaching authority, handed down by the Church's Magisterium. We're not Protestants, who hold our own personal opinions and interpretations of scripture and doctrine to be just as good as anyone else's.

While I'm far from a model of perfect humility, I am at least humble enough to know that ultimately in matters of faith, my own personal opinions mean jack squat, and that the teachings of the magisterium, doctors of the Church, etc., carry far more weight than whatever I might come up with. (And certainly more than the absurd charlatans and dubious "prophets" some on here like to hold up as theological authorities.)

It seems far more arrogant to me to tout one's own personal knowledge and "mature" understanding of the Faith to be superior to those ignorant geniuses who have to quote Church documents or the Cathechism when discussing matters of faith and morals.

The end of theological debate should not be some contest to show who has the best personal understanding, but to humbly submit to the authority of Christ's truth, as taught by His Church. Yes, there are matters where there is room for legitimate debate, but saying that quoting authoritative sources in itself is a sign of ignorance, and insisting on the superiority of one's own personal understanding shows neither humility nor wisdom.
[/quote]
amen.

[Jesus_lol]

Think about it like essay writing back in high school or college. quoting and citing sources is fine and all, providing that its relevant and fits with the rest of what you are writing. just copy pasting a couple huge articles and then putting a title as "Here read this, im lazy" would have been a spectacular failing grade.

to adapt a quote of an insult, parts in brackets added

"He uses [s]statistics[/s][quotes] as a drunken man uses lamp posts - for support rather than for illumination - andrew lang"

[Winchester]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='06 January 2010 - 08:46 AM' timestamp='1262785601' post='2030823']
A lot of you guys might be upset and think that Kafka didn't make good points in his post, but his accusation here that there is arrogance in Catholic forums has been proven by many of your responses. It's sad.
[/quote]
Is contempt a form of arrogance?

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='organwerke' date='06 January 2010 - 10:28 AM' timestamp='1262795333' post='2030868']
I think you didn't understand the sense of this thread, nobody here is blaming those who follow the Church, on the contrary.
Then, to say the things with your own words doesn't mean that you say your opinions (why do ALL think and understand so?), but that, instead of doing a "copy-paste" you refer the content of a document using your own words (and of course you can mention document you refer to).
[/quote]

Perhaps some of us (I know I often do) believe that the words used in such and such quote explains the position far better than we could ever do in our own words. Why pervert a good source with our own layman's interpretation when the quote says it quite ably? Now, if someone simply asked for further clarification and understanding of the quote then that is fine and such a person should be granted their request for explanation (even if the original poster did not originally think the quote needed any explanation, which is often the case). However, to go and publicly post about how such people are somehow ignorant and supposedly arrogant because of this practice seems equally ignorant and arrogant to me. If they have a problem with a quote, it is not the practice of quoting that is a problem, it is their (mis)understanding of the text that needs be addressed. However sometimes, a quote is so simple and clear that no further explanation (even if needed) would be possible as it is already synthesized as far as can be. At this point, its simply a matter of one submitting to the teaching instead of rejecting it for such and such reason, and, from here, it is certainly not the fault of the poster if the recipient cannot understand.

Edited January 6, 2010 by goldenchild17

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='06 January 2010 - 08:46 AM' timestamp='1262785601' post='2030823']
A lot of you guys might be upset and think that Kafka didn't make good points in his post, but his accusation here that there is arrogance in Catholic forums has been proven by many of your responses. It's sad.
[/quote]

It's arrogant to point out arrogance?

This thread has really gotten ridiculous now.