Arrogance In Catholic Forums

[ThePenciledOne]

I think the sound point of this is that if your feelings were hurt than you made remarks against Kafka and if you took it in stride you ended up defending him.

Grow up people.

It's an opinion of Kafka's that he noticed, if you don't think so then why remark? Please give it up. He is just trying to make sure that there is still an intellectual honesty and just plain good manners displayed among Catholics.

[organwerke]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='06 January 2010 - 06:40 PM' timestamp='1262796028' post='2030879']
Perhaps some of us (I know I often do) believe that the words used in such and such quote explains the position far better than we could ever do in our own words. Why pervert a good source with our own layman's interpretation when the quote says it quite ably? Now, if someone simply asked for further clarification and understanding of the quote then that is fine and such a person should be granted their request for explanation (even if the original poster did not originally think the quote needed any explanation, which is often the case). However, to go and publicly post about how such people are somehow ignorant and supposedly arrogant because of this practice seems equally ignorant and arrogant to me. If they have a problem with a quote, it is not the practice of quoting that is a problem, it is their (mis)understanding of the text that needs be addressed. However sometimes, a quote is so simple and clear that no further explanation (even if needed) would be possible as it is already synthesized as far as can be. At this point, its simply a matter of one submitting to the teaching instead of rejecting it for such and such reason, and, from here, it is certainly not the fault of the poster if the recipient cannot understand.
[/quote]

First, you answered only about quotations, and not about the fact that "using our own words" doesn't mean "saying our own opinions" even if it has been interpretd by all this way. So, I think there are many recipients that cannot understand.
Second, I think that since internet has the very useful function of linking, I think that if you want to refer to a document, it is better that you simply link that one, or that you say "from document X" and then quote ONLY the relevant part.

I don't think at all that it is mistaken to do quotations, but yes, I agree that long quotations, and posts that are mainly quotations could be easily seen as arrogant.
If I simply quote a text in order to say: you can plainly see you are wrong, I think this is a bit arrogant.
Moreover, I think that, especially on theologican subjects, only expert should answer, so if you can only quote others beacuse you can't say the things with your own words, without altering the sense of a document, you'd better say nothing or simply say the document's title you want to quote.
Otherwise this means that you aren't an expert, that you too can't say exactly the meaning of the document you want to quote, and so you can't help those ignorant that can't understand and find answers only from the documents, because it is written in a difficult language for many non-expert.
And this is why doing long quotations can be arrogant.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='organwerke' date='06 January 2010 - 11:09 AM' timestamp='1262797751' post='2030895']
First, you answered only about quotations, and not about the fact that "using our own words" doesn't mean "saying our own opinions" even if it has been interpretd by all this way. So, I think there are many recipients that cannot understand.
Second, I think that since internet has the very useful function of linking, I think that if you want to refer to a document, it is better that you simply link that one, or that you say "from document X" and then quote ONLY the relevant part.

I don't think at all that it is mistaken to do quotations, but yes, I agree that long quotations, and posts that are mainly quotations could be easily seen as arrogant.
If I simply quote a text in order to say: you can plainly see you are wrong, I think this is a bit arrogant.
Moreover, I think that, especially on theologican subjects, only expert should answer, so if you can only quote others beacuse you can't say the things with your own words, without altering the sense of a document, you'd better say nothing or simply say the document's title you want to quote.
Otherwise this means that you aren't an expert, that you too can't say exactly the meaning of the document you want to quote, and so you can't help those ignorant that can't understand and find answers only from the documents, because it is written in a difficult language for many non-expert.
And this is why doing long quotations can be arrogant.
[/quote]

ok. I think this whole debate really is rather pointless. Suffice it to say I pretty much entirely don't agree. Perhaps I'll go find a quote which proves it.

Edited January 6, 2010 by goldenchild17

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='06 January 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1262797527' post='2030894']
if your feelings were hurt
[/quote]

Lol.

[Ash Wednesday]

In a way I can kind of see where Kafka is coming from. I don't think he/she is trying to make out that people are being arrogant as if they themselves are somehow immune to it, just that it's something that everyone (themselves included) as a whole should be aware of.

That being said, I think one of the problems is the limitations of the internet. With the right frame of mind, discussions and debates over the internet can be very fruitful and constructive. But in many cases, we completely miss out on voice, body language, and other face-to-face nuances that give us the whole message and the intent behind it.

One person may be quoting documents and the bible in a frenzy, because they really insist on being correct in what they are saying, and they are just trying to excercise correctness and diligence. They also might be intending to do it in the most charitable frame of mind. Because we aren't able to really know the person behind the writing, in many cases, they might get written off as a total arrogant windbag, when that really isn't their intention at all, and they very well might be the same kind of pleasant person you would normally love having church coffee with every week. I don't think there is anything wrong with just supplying quotes to make a point, though I think it DOES help to offer a little of your own commentary with it so people can understand that you aren't just some impersonal quote machine. But as is, really being able to effectively communicate online without being taken the wrong way can be a very tricky thing, I think this should be kept in mind when getting into these things instead of taking things too personally and reading too much into something when we don't really know the whole person behind their message.

Soooooo...have at it, but remember, it is the internets. You may or may not know the person that you are having a debate with, but it would be wise to not make a broad, kneejerk statement about a person's character or personality when we aren't really getting the whole story, and those kinds of accusations in all likelihood have very little to do with the actual debate at hand. (unless your debate is getting personal...and at that point I would say it's not a very Christian or constructive way to pass the time.)

Edited January 6, 2010 by Ash Wednesday

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='06 January 2010 - 08:46 AM' timestamp='1262785601' post='2030823']
A lot of you guys might be upset and think that Kafka didn't make good points in his post, but his accusation here that there is arrogance in Catholic forums has been proven by many of your responses. It's sad.
[/quote]

Your assuming all his points were valid and I have not seen a rebuttal of the rebuttal of Kafka's points. That's arrogant!

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='06 January 2010 - 01:07 PM' timestamp='1262801232' post='2030940']
In a way I can kind of see where Kafka is coming from. I don't think he/she is trying to make out that people are being arrogant as if they themselves are somehow immune to it, just that it's something that everyone (themselves included) as a whole should be aware of.

That being said, I think one of the problems is the limitations of the internet. With the right frame of mind, discussions and debates over the internet can be very fruitful and constructive. But in many cases, we completely miss out on voice, body language, and other face-to-face nuances that give us the whole message and the intent behind it...[/quote]

I agree. Something may be intended in a light manner, but is taken as a very serious put-down. Of course someone may think something is sent across lightly, but in reality it is sent in a heavier manner.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='06 January 2010 - 11:40 AM' timestamp='1262796028' post='2030879']
Perhaps some of us (I know I often do) believe that the words used in such and such quote explains the position far better than we could ever do in our own words. Why pervert a good source with our own layman's interpretation when the quote says it quite ably? Now, if someone simply asked for further clarification and understanding of the quote then that is fine and such a person should be granted their request for explanation
[/quote]

Amen, Goldenchild. I couldn't have said it any better myself.

[organwerke]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='06 January 2010 - 11:38 PM' timestamp='1262813934' post='2031106']
Amen, Goldenchild. I couldn't have said it any better myself.
[/quote]

about quotations I think that we aren't saying that quoting is ALWAYS arrogant. We may start a thread about how to quote in order to make reading and comprehension as easy as possible...and I don't think it would be a bad idea.
I think that very often it is almost necessary to quote documents, but it depends on every case.
I can only say that I'm a teacher, and since I am expected to know quite well my subject, it would be really absurd if I taught ONLY quoting textes or saying to my students: "well, you can read and study this and this".
A teacher is expected to teach a subject to others explaining it with his own words, especially when he has to explain difficult concepts to non expert students.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Kafka,
Everyone knows that my arrogance is perfectly justified so you may spare us your ressentiment. I represent a superior kind of man, an unfettered and transcendent man.

[size="1"][IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/like.gif[/IMG] [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showuser=657"]Billy Bass[/url] kind of likes this. In a way.[/size]

[homeschoolmom]

[Hilde]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='07 January 2010 - 01:10 AM' timestamp='1262819406' post='2031200']
Kafka,
Everyone knows that my arrogance is perfectly justified so you may spare us your ressentiment. I represent a superior kind of man, an unfettered and transcendent man.

[size="1"][IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/like.gif[/IMG] [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showuser=657"]Billy Bass[/url] kind of likes this. In a way.[/size]
[/quote]
I'm confused. Am I on facebook?

[Arpy]

[quote name='Hilde' date='06 January 2010 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1262820348' post='2031207']
I'm confused. Am I on facebook?
[/quote]
[img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/like.gif[/img] [size=1]A [u][color="#000080"]Arpy[/color][/u] le gusta esto.[/size]

Real men use it in Spanish.

Actually, I know Rexi will come in here and say that real men use it in Latin, so I should probably make a special point of saying that that last remark was not serious.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Arpy' date='06 January 2010 - 06:34 PM' timestamp='1262820898' post='2031214']
[img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/like.gif[/img] [size=1]A [u][color="#000080"]Arpy[/color][/u] le gusta esto.[/size]

Real men use it in Spanish.

Actually, I know Rexi will come in here and say that real men use it in Latin, so I should probably make a special point of saying that that last remark was not serious.
[/quote]
real men use klingon u insufferable petaQ.

[Arpy]

I assure you, if there was an option for tlhIngan Hol I'd be on it like Ferengi on latinum.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Arpy' date='06 January 2010 - 06:55 PM' timestamp='1262822140' post='2031225']
I assure you, if there was an option for tlhIngan Hol I'd be on it like Ferengi on latinum.
[/quote]
+1

Werd.