Arrogance In Catholic Forums

[Fidei Defensor]

I completely understand.

The OP wasn't meant to bash quoting documents per se, but rather, the fact that many seem to think that document dumping will end the discussion and automatically make them right. It doesn't. The same with speaking as if you are the Church. No matter how many documents you have, you AREN'T the Church and you can't speak as such. You can speak of your interpretation of said documents or what you think they mean, but the only person who can truly tell what they mean, without question, is the Pope. It doesn't matter how confident you are, you still can't say that you know for sure. That's what is arrogant.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='kafka' date='04 January 2010 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1262647484' post='2029678']
I've been participating on Catholic forums now for three or four years and find some trends disturbing and arrogant.

A. Some Catholics when discussing matters of the faith excessively quote sources and links whether they be magisterial or from theologians or from other supposed source of authority such as EWTN instead of explaining the Faith in there own words, and/or without explaining the meaning of the quote or link in its context. This supposedly adds weight to their posts when in fact it more times than less shows their ignorance and arrogance. In medieval times it was generally considered arrogant and ignorant to quote other sources when explaining and discussing the Faith.[/quote]

So shall we re-invent the wheel every time we speak? What if our articulation is not on par with Moses....shall we confuse people with our attempted explanations or shall we cite the exact wording? There is nothing wrong with quoting documents. It is arrogant to expect everyone to explain everything in their own words when it is not necessary and can accidentally lead people into error. When you cite the Bible, are you going to cite the exact wording you get, or are you going to modernize it? Will we have the parable of the wine skins or the tires on our car?

[quote]B. Some Catholics speak in the name of the Church, in the name of the Magisterium, in the name of the CDF, in the name of the pope, in the name of Aquinas, etc, when they in fact should be speaking in their own name and expressing their own understanding. Again they think that by speaking in the name of the above this adds weight to their argument when in fact it shows their ignorance in not knowing their own place in the Church.[/quote]

Valid point I think. Although there is nothing wrong with citing a teaching in someone's name. Maybe do you have an example of this?

[quote]C. Some Catholic are ignorant of the difference between infallible teachings, non-infallible teachings and fallible teachings. Our understanding of the truths of the Faith either fall into one of these grades and should be treated as such. So when we are arguing and debating a topic which is of theological speculation/opinion which has not been taught infallibly or non-infallibly by the Magisterium one should not weigh in on it as if it is heresy to disagree with the popular theological opinion.[/quote]

Many Catholics are grossly ignorant of their faith altogether. Nothing new here.

[quote]D. Some Catholics meddle in all areas of the Faith as if know it alls, when in fact they should only participate in matters they have a clear and mature understanding of. This sort of meddling is arrogant.[/quote]

I agree. There is appropriate meddling and then there is inappropriate meddling.

[quote]E. Some Catholics glorify the Magisterium and the modern Catechism as if it is these were the only sources of truth when in fact the Magisterium draws from two sources of truth greater than itself namely Tradition (the Deeds of God wrought in history for the salvation of all) and Sacred Scripture (the words written by God in history for the salvation of all). The Catechism is a starting source for the truths of the Faith. The Faith is much more profound and detailed than can possibly be expressed in the modern Catechsim and in fact many Catechisms have been written in salvation history starting with the Didache. So to place to much weight on one would be wrong.[/quote]

A large majority of Catholics have never opened a Catechism much less would have any idea what's in it or where to look in it.

[quote]F. Some Catholics blow certain details and statements of a participant out of proportion instead of focusing on the essence of what the poster is trying to express and forgiving lack of perfection in expression as if the truths of the Faith hinged on one word out of place.[/quote]

This is hardly a distinctive characteristic of Catholics. You find this in all groups via human nature. Actually you find all of these things everywhere else.

[quote]G. Some Catholics on the other hand place there own personal opinions over and above Church teaching and undermine the faith by presenting useless and meaningless questions. This happens here especially in the debate table and usually regards matters of morals or passages of Sacred Scripture.[/quote]

Sure it happens. Stupid questions get asked all the time everywhere.

[quote]H. Some Catholics mistake or supplant their own understanding of the Faith with the Faith itself and so set up their understanding of the Faith as an idol, and unbendable instead of humbly seeking the Truth. [/quote]

How many Christians blindly accept the Bible? How many atheists turn to their god of chance no matter the odds?

[quote]Now I am of course not perfect and guilty to some degree of these things in the past, and I dont want anyone to take this rebuke more than a grain of salt, however this is what I have experience and avoiding the above is now a standard I strive for, so as not to be condemned as a fool and arrogant before Christ.
[/quote]

Great for striving for better. However I think your being really harsh and acting as if this doesn't happen to other groups. Can Catholics do better? Yes, they can. However all of this happens in other places.





If it seems like the Catholic forums reek of battle and campaigns, it is because their is a war within Catholicism. Many Catholics believe they can pick and choose their beliefs. Nearly all Catholic politicians (and judges (supreme court)) hold blatant double standards and see nothing wrong with it. Converts come into the Church and find near-heresy being taught in RCIA and baptismal classes. Thousands of Catholics fall for the emotional feel-good highs of Protestantism and the lawlessness of atheism leaving a faith they don't understand. After tens of years of blatant ignorance and misinterpretation, devout Catholics are trying to reform the battle lines after a massive retreat and horrible loss of attendance in church. These devout Catholics are learning that you cannot be ashamed for our beliefs and rather you need to be humbly-proud of them. Catholics need to learn to publicly express their faith and not continue to hide it in a closet of political correctness, and if that means we come out looking arrogant and holier-than-thou....so be it. I will not sacrifice the practice and belief of my faith to APPEAR humble.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Arpy' date='05 January 2010 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1262716656' post='2030241']
Is posting just to say '+1' really necessary? Seems a bit spammish to me.
[/quote]

+1

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='05 January 2010 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1262720453' post='2030290']
+1
[/quote]
-1

[organwerke]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='05 January 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1262718172' post='2030260']
I will not sacrifice the practice and belief of my faith to APPEAR humble.
[/quote]

Oh, but nobody here is asking you this!
But I think the answers themselves to this thread demonstrate that there are many true observations by kafka: many persons seemed to be offended by his post, and started saying "oh your post says that you are the arrogant" etc.,
It wasn't I that started this thread, but I repeat: I aprreciate this forum very much but I also think that kafka pointed out very well many arrogant behaviours that should be avoided (I think he spoke in abstract not to offend anyone and also because very likely any of us has sometimes some of these attitudes).
And, honestly, when I read him, I thought immediately of some users that, in my opinion, very often speak as described at least in two of kafka's points, especially, as he says, when debates are opened.
I'm not the hypocrit that says "I never be arrogant" since it happened also to me, but I think kafka was really exact in his post and I can undertsand what he means and I repeat that I completely agree with him, especially when he describes behaviours that in general should be avoided in catholic discussions/debate tables.

PS: as for the quotations, I think he refers to those very long quotations that make the discussion really heavy to be read.

[jkaands]

Anyone reading this thread or many others on this forum or others, who is looking from the outside, would think that the posters are all members of different religions, of different branches of Catholicism, like branches of the Orthodox, but much more separate. The Catholic Church in the US is divided in all but name, which is the main reason it is so weak, considering its size. I am reminded of a confrontation I witnessed years ago, when I attended a speech given by an Israeli, defending Israeli behavior in Israel. After he spoke, he was viciously attacked by Jews from the US. A Palestinian got up to give his side of the story but was drowned out by the Americans who kept on yelling at the Israeli. Similarly, Catholics like to ridicule the multitude of Protestant denominations, the many faces of Hinduism and Buddhism, but the different factions in Catholicism are tearing their own church apart, which can only weaken it overall.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='jkaands' date='05 January 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1262723754' post='2030318']
Anyone reading this thread or many others on this forum or others, who is looking from the outside, would think that the posters are all members of different religions, of different branches of Catholicism, like branches of the Orthodox, but much more separate. The Catholic Church in the US is divided in all but name, which is the main reason it is so weak, considering its size. I am reminded of a confrontation I witnessed years ago, when I attended a speech given by an Israeli, defending Israeli behavior in Israel. After he spoke, he was viciously attacked by Jews from the US. A Palestinian got up to give his side of the story but was drowned out by the Americans who kept on yelling at the Israeli. Similarly, Catholics like to ridicule the multitude of Protestant denominations, the many faces of Hinduism and Buddhism, but the different factions in Catholicism are tearing their own church apart, which can only weaken it overall.
[/quote]

Even though we as Catholics have some disagreements, we are unified in all the most important aspects of faith and morals. Although we may feel or look divided when we argue and debate, and although we often lack tact and charity, the bond between us is stronger than any other bond on Earth. Kafka and I, even though we rarely agree on this phorum, are united in the Body and Blood of Christ Our Lord, and I am proud to call him my brother. That's the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism; Protestants have literally nothing to unite them. Catholics have a real spiritual (and, if you like, institutional) bond that cannot be broken except by explicit denial of the faith. This is why the Church is not dying and cannot die. The bond is living and eternal, and at the end of the day I have nothing against any of my Catholic brothers and sisters.

[MIKolbe]

Though I do not fully agree with everything that aalpha wrote, he strikes a cord in terms of the bond we have as catholics.

If people come to this site hoping or expecting to experience sugar-coated-pollyanna-sweet-cakes; they will be sadly mistaken. We agree on the Big Things, so that we can disagree on everything else... I think Chesterton wrote something like that.

We are saints in the making, with God's grace; but we aren't there yet. This is not so much an excuse as an explanation of some of the arrogance, or whatever, one may see here.

just my 2 cents.

[Lil Red]

+JMJ+
[quote name='Raphael' date='04 January 2010 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1262666310' post='2030011']
"What's wrong with the world? I am." -G.K. Chesterton, paraphrase
[/quote]
I just got that book

[quote name='Luthien' date='05 January 2010 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1262714717' post='2030221']
I never can understand these threads that are created just to bash a certain group of posters, it truly baffles me...
[/quote]
i know.

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='05 January 2010 - 11:37 AM' timestamp='1262716667' post='2030242']
Well I'm often guilty of this. The reason is, other sources generally express what I want to say better, and when I express my own opinion, I'm sure to be challenged by some one to provide a source to back up what I'm stating. I just provide the source to begin with and be done with it. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Jim
[/quote]

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='05 January 2010 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1262725862' post='2030341']
+JMJ+

I just got that book
[/quote]

which one is it? I'm reading [i]Heretics[/i]

[Lil Red]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='05 January 2010 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1262726010' post='2030342']
which one is it? I'm reading [i]Heretics[/i]
[/quote]
+JMJ+
[u]What's Wrong with the World[/u]

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='05 January 2010 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1262726120' post='2030345']
+JMJ+
[u]What's Wrong with the World[/u]
[/quote]

oh.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='05 January 2010 - 02:20 PM' timestamp='1262726448' post='2030354']
oh.
[/quote]
+JMJ+
i actually think it's a collection of essays bound into a book.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='05 January 2010 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1262726906' post='2030364']
+JMJ+
i actually think it's a collection of essays bound into a book.
[/quote]

if you get a Kindle, you can get the complete works for 99 cents

[Lil Red]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='05 January 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1262731086' post='2030403']
if you get a Kindle, you can get the complete works for 99 cents
[/quote]
+JMJ+
well, i like actually having a book. i'm a tree waster, i know.