What Was The Hardest Truth To Accept?

[Mickey's_Girl]

Two very difficult things:

1. What I call "long-term justification": the idea that justification and sanctification are not separate, but go together on through one's life, and that one cannot be "certain" of salvation; connected to that is Purgatory.

2. Certain aspects of doctrine about Mary. Sure, I buy people telling me that "Catholics do not worship Mary". That seems pretty clear. But the whole "asking Mary to help you get close to her son" thing when you're used to communicating *directly* with Jesus--why do I need a mediator?

These are theological things hard to believe or give up, coming from a Protestant background. I feel certain that Jesus died for my sins and that when I die, I will be in Heaven with him. Also, I feel certain that when I talk to Jesus directly, he hears me. It seems like "going backwards" to do otherwise.

And sure, I know that if, indeed, what the Church teaches is *true*, I'll have to accept it eventually, whether now or later. But I'm not there yet, and not sure if I will be.

MG

[Mickey's_Girl]

(by the way, I mean no disrespect with the following message--I'm going on the assumption that everyone realizes I'm still in the middle of my journey. Thanks.)

Re: Mary--I can accept the idea of her being a second, obedient Eve. In fact, that helps, a lot. Immaculate conception? Maybe, although it seems like overcomplicating the issue. The assumption of Mary into heaven? Okay--but again, it seems like overcomplication.

I don't know a lot about the early church, and plan to do a lot of reading this summer. I'll be interested to see what they have to say on all these issues. :-) (And yes, I'm planning to read Scott Hahn.)

MG

[Dave]

Hi MG, welcome to Phatmass!

Go to the Catholic Apologetics section of the phorum. There's a reference area that deals with almost every Catholic doctrine imaginable.

I'd probably be here for a long time if I addressed every point you brought up, but I did want to say something regarding Mary where you said you didn't understand why we need a mediator. Well, we ask Mary to pray for us and with us. We do that with our friends and family here on earth too. So if we can't have people in heaven acting as a mediator for us (at least in the sense I'm talking about), we can't have people on earth doing so either.

[Mickey's_Girl]

Dave--

Thanks for the reference to the Catholic apologetics section--I've already spent a good amount of time there, and plan to spend much more! :-)

It's not the idea of having other people (whether here on earth, saints who have gone before, or Mary specifically) "pray for" me that is the issue...intercession is fantastic, and I definitely need it. :-) I guess I see intercessory prayer ("pray for me, Dave" :-) as something very different from the idea of "mediator", and definitely different from the way people seem to be talking about Mary sometimes.

Not to start some big debate in the wrong section. I just wanted you to be clear about where I was trying to go with that.

I need to do more reading, obviously. :-)

MG

[Dave]

No problem.

Actually, the whole idea of intercessory prayer is having a mediator. We act as mediators when we pray for each other. In the Bible it does say that Jesus is the one Mediator between God and man, but when people pray for us, whether they're on earth or in heaven, their kind of mediatorship is a SECONDARY mediatorship that is ENTIRELY dependent on Jesus being the one Mediator.

[drforjc]

Dave,
I totally agree with you that the Church's moral teachings (above all contraception) were by far the hardest bridge to cross. Accepting dogmatic truth is one thing, but when it involves radically changing your personal behavior, well...

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='drforjc' date='Apr 23 2004, 09:21 AM'] Dave,
I totally agree with you that the Church's moral teachings (above all contraception) were by far the hardest bridge to cross.  Accepting dogmatic truth is one thing, but when it involves radically changing your personal behavior, well... [/quote]
See, now that's funny... for me, contraception was one of the easiest things to accept... Even if we'd not become Catholic, we would probably forgo birth control. Although, I must admit... we decided this right after our baby was born and I'm still nursing him... we'll see how easy it is to accept when it actually effects me!

[Sojourner]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Apr 23 2004, 11:28 AM'] See, now that's funny... for me, contraception was one of the easiest things to accept... Even if we'd not become Catholic, we would probably forgo birth control. Although, I must admit... we decided this right after our baby was born and I'm still nursing him... we'll see how easy it is to accept when it actually effects me! [/quote]
Yeah, that one wasn't really an issue for me either ... but I'm not married, so at this point it's really not affecting me. In theory, I love it, though.

[Mickey's_Girl]

Yes, and actually, the Church's teaching on contraception is one of the things that ATTRACTS me to the church. I love the whole doctrine regarding what sex is all about, the sanctity of life, etc.

MG

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

The thing to remember is that it is either all Doctrine or no Doctrine. You can't go 1/2 and 1/2. This was hard for me at first...

Pax et Agape per Maria, Andy

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]Re: Mary--I can accept the idea of her being a second, obedient Eve. In fact, that helps, a lot. Immaculate conception? Maybe, although it seems like overcomplicating the issue. The assumption of Mary into heaven? Okay--but again, it seems like overcomplication.[/quote]

I'm not a convert, but...

I've never found either to be an over-complication.

With the Immaculate Conception, I find it necessary for this to be defined because it shows us that God is so pure that even the vessel He was born of had to be spotless.

As for the assumption, it shows us what heaven is like. It shows that heaven is the ultimate goal and reward for living the Christian life. Mary never did anything against God, and we see how she is rewarded. It's encouraging.

[twf]

I've shared some of my story on this 'phorum' before, so I won't get into it right now, but I'm not yet Catholic but am fully convinced that the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus established (oh how I wish I could be confirmed right now...but that's not how the Church does things...I may have to wait another full YEAR... ).

Mickey's_Girl: I struggled with justification as well, but I became convinced that the Catholic teaching was fully Biblical before I came to full faith in the Catholic Church. I HIGHLY recommend you read Dave Armstrong's book "A Biblical Defence of Catholicism." He is a convert and does an EXCELLENT job of explaining, from a Biblical context, the importance of works, while stressing the truth of sola gracia (grace alone). It also does an excellent job of explaining the concept of temporal penalties for sin, and why purgatory is needed. As a start, to accept purgatory, all you have to realize is that no sin can enter heaven, so we sinful creatures must be made pure (thus we must be purified to be 100% holy before entering heaven)...the second concept you need to look into is temporal penalties for sin.

If you want this book, I can 'lend' it to you (I own the .doc version) via email, you'd have to delete it after you're done...or you can buy it yourself for $6 ($9 for the deluxe version) from Dave's site: [url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM"]http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZHOME.HTM[/url].

Again I HIGHLY recommend this book, it helped me out a lot.

[Selah]

The easiest for me, surprisingly, was the doctrine of Mary and the communion of Saints.

Hardest would have to be: Confession at first.

[MissyP89]

I'm not a convert, but a revert.

The hardest thing for me was/is the Assumption of Our Lady. Still struggling with it today, frankly...if it wasn't dogma, it wouldn't bother me so much. Another rough one is moral theology, namely contraception, but I'm working through that pretty well.

The easiest thing was the Real Presence.

[HisChildForever]

I'm a cradle Catholic but did most of my "faith seeking" on my own. (That is, while my parents enrolled my brothers and I in CCD, and took us to Church every week, there was no "family instruction" or family prayer when it came to the faith.)

So when I was in high school, these were my biggest problems (as I came to learn more about Catholicism): Confession, homosexual marriage, contraception, no women priests.

Of course as I learned more and more, I came to fully accept all of these teachings with no problem. I used to approach my questions with defiance, pride, and stubbornness which is why I couldn't find answers for so long. Well, I found the answers, but I didn't care too much for them.

Just recently I was iffy on NFP but that's okay now, but my "issue" right now is Mary (not her intercession or anything, but the devotional aspects).