Is This Actually At Steubenville?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='15 April 2010 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1271372420' post='2094285']
I forget how small states are back east.
[/quote]
Attending FUS was a life changing experience for me, because it confirmed my interest in the Christian East and helped me gain the experience necessary to change ritual Churches.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='15 April 2010 - 05:01 PM' timestamp='1271372499' post='2094286']
And for the record, I love it!
[/quote]
I also loved attending FUS, but I and my friends avoided campus liturgies like the plague.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='15 April 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1271372499' post='2094286']
Hey now!
[/quote]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNS69SFe2KM[/media]

[jeffpugh]

Wooow... interesting. I'm not surprised, though. It was fascinating reading the peoples' body language. Tireless emotion-festing for a whole weekend. It looked like it's a majority of elderly. I hate to say it, but thank goodness. I could rant on, but I don't want to upset the sensibilities of some PMers who are into this sort of thing. I'll just quietly continue my revolution

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 April 2010 - 08:04 PM' timestamp='1271372695' post='2094289']
I also loved attending FUS, but I and my friends avoided campus liturgies like the plague.
[/quote]

What was wrong with the liturgies in your opinion?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='15 April 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1271372843' post='2094292']
What was wrong with the liturgies in your opinion?
[/quote]

[spoiler][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpYeekQkAdc[/media][/spoiler]

[Slappo]

Steubenville is about 3 minutes from west virginia and 15 minutes from Pennsylvania...

The bridge to West Virginia is literally a half mile from the campus (if even?). Then it is a little 7-10 mile strip of West Virginia until you hit Pennsylvania.

It's weird...


FUS is really becoming a better option for more traditional minded students as of late. In my 4 years there I saw drastic changes. It is still a very very charismatic school, but there are plenty of options for the more traditional minded. This includes weekly low masses in the [i]Forma Extraordinaria[/i] on Saturday Mornings including a Sunday High Mass once a month. There is also a High Mass available off campus once a month at a parish less than two miles away.

My Junior year they even had the Schola Cantorum Franciscana sing for the Good Friday service (There are a lot of visitors for the Triduum so to have a very traditional choir sing is awesome considering it is a charismatic school). The Easter Vigil the following night was extremely charismatic and not to my tastes at all, but Good Friday was absolutely beautiful.


I would stay away from FOPS, from almost any field house Mass (the Good Friday service I attended was in the field house though), from any Household Life Masses (usually in the field house), and usually from the noon daily mass.

The 6:30 am mass is always without music which takes away from the charismatic feel of a lot of the masses. Also, silence is definitely appropriate for the Latin Rite so I really enjoy having no music in mass every now and then as it seems to be the only time to find silence in the liturgy these days. I think two of the 4:45pm masses have the organ with a cantor(s).

You just have to know where to go to get the more traditional spirituality.



There are also some much more traditional Households for men and women on campus as well including mine for men, Tantum Ergo Sacramentum.

Our patrons are St. Thomas Aquinas and Our Lady Ark of the New Covenant. It is a mens Eucharistic household (in that our charism/devotion is towards the Eucharist, especially in the liturgy) that has a great love for all things liturgical. We include Liturgy of the Hours in all of our commitments and only one of our commitments is not in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Depending on who is in the household at the time we chant compline after rosary, we attend solemn vespers offered by the campus every Sunday, we keep a weekly holy hour, and we pray vespers as part of our Lord's Day celebration. Lord's Day is celebrated at 4pm and is meant to prepare for Sunday. Liturgically this is what Vespers does, so we include it within our celebration. Our household also has the most Eastern Rite Catholics on campus . Two Byzantines, one member is becoming Byzantine, another is half byzantine you could say (mother byzantine father latin).

If you have more questions and want to know more details let me know. I love my Alma Mater. I don't agree with everything she does, but I see big changes and great hope for the future.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='15 April 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1271372843' post='2094292']
What was wrong with the liturgies in your opinion?
[/quote]
They are infected with charismaticism.

Nevertheless, attending FUS was beneficial for me, because it exposed me to Eastern Christian liturgies. I changed ritual Churches in March 2005, and have been spiritually at home since that time.

Interestingly during my time at FUS six other people changed ritual Churches, and one former member of the Roman Rite entered the Ruthenian seminary and is now a priest.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Slappo]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='15 April 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1271372843' post='2094292']
What was wrong with the liturgies in your opinion?
[/quote]

There are also many things within the liturgy that are neither appropriate nor in accord with the GIRM.

[u][b]Although this depends greatly on the celebrant.[/b][/u]

[ThePenciledOne]

Ok, I have always known the phatmass has been traditional or at least a majority.

What is so wrong with the charismatic movement? As Apotheoun "They are infected with charismaticism." (referring to the liturgies)

And as Slappo mentioned, yes the campus has gotten very traditional and after talking to some of the upperclassmen here, I have gotten an idea of what it used to be like. Though for the record as traditionalism has come back to the school, there has been an increase in politickin' as well from the administration, though that is probably unrelated.

Though this goes without saying, but I do love the charistmatic movement, the FOPs are great as is the weekly P&W.

I was recently inducted into the Fishers of Men household, which has the chrism of Evangelism. And its also a Mariam household haha.

Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents.



[b]
[/b]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='15 April 2010 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1271374262' post='2094313']
What is so wrong with the charismatic movement? As Apotheoun "They are infected with charismaticism." (referring to the liturgies)[/quote]
The charistmatic movement is heretical from my perspective as an Eastern Catholic. What Roman Catholics do is their own business, but I avoid charismaticism like the plague . . . as I would any other form of Protestantism.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 April 2010 - 08:33 PM' timestamp='1271374384' post='2094315']
The charistmatic movement is heretical from my perspective as an Eastern Catholic. What Roman Catholics do is their own business, but I avoid charismaticism like the plague . . . as I would any other form of Protestantism.
[/quote]

Despite the fact that the first Christians and Apostles were more or less charismatic?

Just a question, but then again its whatever your spirituality is.

[Apotheoun]

The posts below, which I wrote some time ago, express my position on the Charismatic movement:

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='18 May 2008 - 08:43 PM' timestamp='1211165024' post='1533153']
I expressed my views about the "Charistmatic" movement in a couple of posts from a few years ago, and I haven't changed my position since that time:

[quote]In the Western theological tradition a distinction is made between grace which is called [i]gratiae gratum faciens[/i], that is, the grace that makes one holy and pleasing to God (also known as sanctifying grace), and that which is called [i]gratiae gratis datae[/i], that is, grace in the form of particular gifts given in order to edify the Church and sanctify others. The latter "type" of grace, is further divided into ordinary (hierarchic) and extraordinary (charismatic) gifts, and as far as the ordinary gifts are concerned, they are intrinsically connected to the ecclesiastical hierarchy and the priestly, prophetic, and kingly role of the ordained ministers of the Church; while the extraordinary or charismatic gifts can be given to anyone within the Church. Now, obviously the first "type" of grace (i.e., [i]gratiae gratum faciens[/i]) is necessary for salvation, because a man must be in a state of grace in order to be saved; while the latter "type" of grace ([i]gratiae gratis datae[/i]), although important in its own way -- especially in the form of the hierarchic gifts mentioned in association with sacred orders -- is not absolutely necessary in the same way that sanctifying grace is necessary for salvation. In fact a person can be in a state of mortal sin and still receive the gifts of grace "[i]gratis datae[/i]," and that is why it is vital that a man not focus upon the extraordinary charismatic gifts, nor even seek them out [i]per se[/i], but seek instead God's gift of sanctifying (i.e., deifying) grace. Now, if a man receives any extraordinary manifestation of God's presence given for the edification of others he should accept it in humility and use it only for God's purposes (bearing in mind that it is extraordinary), and not in order to draw attention to himself, nor to rejoice in the gift itself, but to rejoice only in God (the giver of all good things).

That being said, the concern that I have in connection with the charismatic gifts -- as they tend to be experienced today -- is that there is an inordinate focus upon oneself as the recipient of the gift. Thus, there seems to be a self-aggrandizing focus today, which sees the extraordinary manifestation of a gift as somehow making the person receiving it an "important person" within the community (or prayer group). In my own experience with "Charismatics" I have often seen a tendency toward a desire for things that are sensationalistic, that is, a desire for that which is extraordinary, simply because it is extraordinary and because it somehow makes a man feel important in relation to those around him. Moreover, it must always be borne in mind that the charismatic gifts are extraordinary, not ordinary, and so to focus upon them is to emphasize a minor gift over the most important gift of all, that is, sanctification or what the East calls [i]theosis[/i]. Now in saying this I am reminded of the words of St. John of the Cross, who, in connection with extraordinary gifts of vision, once said: "[Now] since these imaginative apprehensions, visions, and other forms or species are presented through some image or particular idea, individuals should neither feed upon them nor encumber themselves with them. And this is true whether these visions be false and diabolical or if they be recognized as authentic and from God. Neither should people desire to accept them or keep them. Thus these persons can remain detached, divested, pure, simple, and without any mode or method as the union demands." [St. John of the Cross, [u]The Ascent of Mount Carmel[/u], Book II, Chapter 16] St. John gives further warnings later on in the third book of the Ascent (see Chapters 31 and 32) when he speaks about the dangers associated with the exercise of the charismatic gifts, and there are three dangers in particular: (1) the danger of deceiving others or of being deceived, (2) the danger to the soul "with respect to faith," and (3) the danger of vainglory or some other type of vanity (See Ch. 31, no. 1). Thus, St. John clearly warns against rejoicing in the charismatic gifts, and instructs the person receiving such a gift to use it with extreme caution. Now, in my own experience of the modern charismatic movement there seems to be a focus upon rejoicing in the gift itself, even if it serves no purpose in edifying others; and in addition, there seems to be a desire (at least on the part of some) to draw attention to the recipient of the gift as if he is somehow special, and this shows a real lack of spiritual maturity. Finally, it is important to remember that the real focus of the spiritual life is God Himself, and so a man must not focus upon the gifts that he believes he has received from God (whether real or imagined), because he can receive these extraordinary gifts even while he is in a state of mortal sin.[/quote]

My response to the assertion made by some people at this forum several years ago that the spirituality of the Charismatic movement is related to the theological tradition of the Byzantine Churches:

[quote]There is nothing Eastern about the modern charismatic movement, and in fact quite the contrary, it is based upon an utterly foreign theology that is inimical to Byzantine spirituality. The modern charismatic movement is founded upon the holiness and pentecostal movements of 19th and 20th century Protestantism, and has nothing to do with the spirituality of the Hesychastic mystics of the East, which is always focused upon the reintegration of mind and heart in prayer through dispassion and ascesis, and which has no interest in sensationalistic displays of so-called "charismatic" gifts. The Hesychastic "Prayer of the Heart" is focused upon entering into communion with God by participating in His uncreated energies, and this should not be confused with the modern emotionalism of the charismatic movement in the Western Catholic Church, or in the Protestant ecclesial communities that gave birth to this movement in the first place.

Furthermore, I must emphasize the fact that it is not even possible to understand Eastern mystical experience without first understanding and accepting the Triadological distinctions made within the theological tradition of the Byzantine Church. Now this, of course, necessarily entails accepting the fundamental realities of essence ([i]ousia[/i]), person ([i]hypostasis[/i]), and energy ([i]energeia[/i]) in God, while also accepting the synergistic communion that is made possible by the incarnation of the eternal Logos, because it is only through the sacraments instituted by God incarnate -- which have the effect of extending His saving action throughout history until He returns at the end of the age -- that man can experience a true mystical encounter with the tri-hypostatic Godhead. Thus, the use of terms like "fire" and "light," and other terms of that kind, which may be common to the charismatic movement and the Byzantine tradition, reveals only superficial similarities between the two theological approaches. That being said, it is clear that the charismatic movement presently popular in the Latin Church is basically a modern Western movement, which is founded upon the anti-sacramental theology of some of the more radical groups that came out of the 16th century Protestant Reformation, and as such it has nothing in common with the Byzantine doctrinal and spiritual tradition.

Finally, I would simply reiterate what I said earlier in this thread, that is, that a Byzantine Christian should avoid the charismatic movement, because it does not represent the liturgical, spiritual, or doctrinal tradition of his [i]sui juris[/i] Church.
[/quote][/quote]

Edited April 15, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='15 April 2010 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1271374751' post='2094321']
Despite the fact that the first Christians and Apostles were more or less charismatic?

Just a question, but then again its whatever your spirituality is.
[/quote]
The Charismatic movement dates from the early 20th century, and so there is nothing apostolic about it; and as far as the "Catholic Charismatic" movement is concerned it only arose during the 1960s under the influence of Protestant Pentecostal theology.

[zunshynn]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='15 April 2010 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1271374262' post='2094313']
And as Slappo mentioned, yes the campus has gotten very traditional and after talking to some of the upperclassmen here, I have gotten an idea of what it used to be like. Though for the record as traditionalism has come back to the school, there has been an increase in politickin' as well from the administration, though that is probably unrelated.
[/quote]

Interesting you think there's been an increase in politicking... As compared to what? Isn't this your first year there?

Politicking is pretty common at most colleges I think.

Anyway... the issue isn't necessarily with "charismaticism"... whatever that really means... but with celebrating the liturgy the way the church prescribes for it to be celebrated. The "charismatic movement" simply tends to take a lot of liberties with the liturgy that are not appropriate.

The Church as the Brisde of Christ, gives us the Mass and calls for it to be participated in in certain ways... for our own good... and as Catholics we are all called to be obedient to that, regardless of what label, traditional, charismatic, conservative, American, French, Mexican, Irish, etc. we happen to fall into or align ourselves with.

Edited April 15, 2010 by zunshynn