Songwriter Gets Death Threat For Criticizing Working Women Fatwa

[HisChildForever]

Wow, that easy? Let me try another one.

Can you not derail my thread?

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='16 May 2010 - 04:24 PM' timestamp='1274041476' post='2111507']
Wow, that easy? Let me try another one.

Can you not derail my thread?
[/quote]

Can you please not act childishly after I take the time to do a favor for you?


And this is not derailing, it is responding to your general vendetta that this threat is part of. If you would like to make a separate thread discussing your methodology alone I would consider that.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Hassan

[HisChildForever]

I really wish people would stick to the topic of the thread.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='16 May 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1274042356' post='2111516']
I really wish people would stick to the topic of the thread.
[/quote]


As I see it you have four choices.

1-Take me up on my offer to make it into a separate thread.
2-Ignore it
3-Respond to my criticisms of your methodology of which this thread is part
4-continue to whine about it.


I'd recommend any of options one through three.

[ThePenciledOne]

HCF, I think it is Hassan's concern that you tend to focus on Islam spcifically. We all know where you stand and your objections are rightous, yet Hassan is double checking your methodology as he is said. I find it a bit much as well this, focus or 'obsession' as Fidei put it. I understand this is something you are passionately against, but I don't think we can truely count out that these terrorists not matter how brain-washed they are, they are still human and deserve forgiveness/salvation. We are called to Love our enemies.

And personally I find it interesting that you havn't come up with an answer yet for Hassan yet.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hassan' date='16 May 2010 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1274040682' post='2111502']
The hypocrisy is obvious. In one case causality is established by the mere expressed intent of the offender, in another case the offender's intent is absolutely irrelevant if it is not sanctioned by official dogma.

I'm sure that HCF will now recognize the internal inconstancy of her methodology and correct it accordingly.

[/quote]

Hassan, I think there is a problem with that logic. The Mahometans do not have a central authority on the Mahometan belief system. The Church does. A Catholic priest who condones an atrocity clearly does not do so with the approbation of the Church. If the Mahometan belief system does not have an official teaching on the subject of violence against non-violent people, jihads, and the like, how can you condemn the act of anyone saying they detest the Mahometan belief system because it supports X, Y and Z, and does not oppose Q and R? Because who knows what the Mahometan belief system is? Not even the Mahometans can agree upon it! Someone can claim to be a "real" Mahometan, who supports killing non-violent people. A Catholic cannot.

The Koran can be twisted to mean anything its alleged followers claim. Church teaching cannot, and that is because it has a Magisterial authority guided by the Holy Spirit. Mahometanism is more like Protestantism, in that respect. You can find whatever flavor of Protestantism you want, all claiming to be "true Bible believers," while believing contrary things.

~Sternhauser

Edited May 16, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Hassan]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='16 May 2010 - 04:46 PM' timestamp='1274042811' post='2111523']
Hassan, I think there is a problem with that logic. The Mahomettans do not have a central authority on the Mahometan belief system. The Church does. A Catholic priest who condones an atrocity clearly does not do so with the approbation of the Church. If the Mahometan belief system does not have an official teaching on the subject of violence against non-violent people, jihads, and the like, how can you condemn the act of anyone saying they detest the Mahometan cult because it supports X, Y and Z, and does not oppose Q and R?

The Koran can be twisted to mean anything its alleged followers claim. Church teaching cannot, and that is because there is a Magisterial authority.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


There is not a central teaching that is "Islam". I have argue this many times and taken exception to attempts by individuals here to treat Islam as a monolithic ideology. There are, however, ideological factions, for lack of a more appropriate term, within the general aggregate of ideologies which we describe as 'Islam' and these ideological factions, generally, have concrete, defined teachings.

HCF does not grant that point, generally. Or at least she does not speak as though she admits that point.

I'm about to off on a tangent about other problems with her methodology but that is enough to make my point which is this.

The point about causality stands because her attempt to establish is with Muslims goes only so far as demonstrating the expressed intent of the individual, and does not check it against that ideological faction to which they belong. Her methodology of establishing causality is what I take issue with and that would stand even if applied to Protestantism. Yes, there are many divergent sorts of protestantism, but most of those particular sects have definite teachings of their own.

If they belong to the Sunni mainstream, then there is quite a bit to check it against as Sunni Orthodoxy has had a general stability of teachings and does recognize a central authority in the collective pronouncements of the Ulema. Most disagreements are of fairly banal matters. If certain prayers can be merged together in extraordinary circumstances et cetera.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Hassan

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hassan' date='16 May 2010 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1274043401' post='2111528']
There is not a central teaching that is "Islam". I have argue this many times and taken exception to attempts by individuals here to treat Islam as a monolithic ideology. There are, however, ideological factions, for lack of a more appropriate term, within the general aggregate of ideologies which we describe as 'Islam' and these ideological factions, generally, have concrete, defined teachings.

HCF does not grant that point, generally. Or at least she does not speak as though she admits that point.

I'm about to off on a tangent about other problems with her methodology but that is enough to make my point which is this.

The point about causality stands because her attempt to establish is with Muslims goes only so far as demonstrating the expressed intent of the individual, and does not check it against that ideological faction to which they belong.

If they belong to the Sunni mainstream, then there is quite a bit to check it against as Sunni Orthodoxy has had a general stability of teachings and does recognize a central authority in the collective pronouncements of the Ulema. Most disagreements are of fairly banal matters. If certain prayers can be merged together in extraordinary circumstances et cetera.
[/quote]

When someone violates a Sunni teaching in a public and violent way, what happens to him?

~Sternhauser

[Hassan]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='16 May 2010 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1274043566' post='2111529']
When someone violates a Sunni teaching in a public and violent way, what happens to him?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


That depends on where he is and what he does.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hassan' date='16 May 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1274043719' post='2111531']
That depends on where he is and what he does.
[/quote]

Where he is? Let's say he's in India, and he throws acid on the face of a woman who refuses to marry him. What happens to him?

~Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='16 May 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1274042660' post='2111520']
HCF, I think it is Hassan's concern that you tend to focus on Islam spcifically. We all know where you stand and your objections are rightous, yet Hassan is double checking your methodology as he is said. I find it a bit much as well this, focus or 'obsession' as Fidei put it. I understand this is something you are passionately against, but I don't think we can truely count out that these terrorists not matter how brain-washed they are, they are still human and deserve forgiveness/salvation. We are called to Love our enemies.

And personally I find it interesting that you havn't come up with an answer yet for Hassan yet.
[/quote]

You find it personally interesting that I am not about to indulge him? You have not been around here as long as I have. I have engaged with Hassan before, and frankly I am tired of being ridiculed and insulted by him.

I do focus on Islam specifically because I have nothing against the Muslim people (save, of course, those who take Islam to heart and believe in bloodshed). I know Muslims and I am very friendly and compassionate towards them. I am absolutely appalled that my concern for democracy, freedoms, women, Christians (re: the ongoing persecutions of Christians in the Middle East), etc. is interpreted as "obsession". That is the kind of game the left pulls on the right all the time. "Oh, just ignore those right-wing terrorists!" It is easier to mock the individual than to mock what the individual stands for. I also find it bizarre that because I am interested in something, I must be obsessed. Every single Phatmass member has their own topic of interest. I have NEVER seen anyone else called out on being "obsessed" with their preferred topic. Why? Can anyone give me an objective answer? Those who post on politics post with passion and conviction. Those who post on abortion, the Liturgy, and proper reception of Communion all express that same level of passion.

Here is the problem. I post threads on Islam, and all of a sudden it is assumed that I am consumed by Islam. I must only read about Islam, investigate Islam, stay up until 4am pouring over verses from the Qur'an and scrutinizing Islam-related websites, right? For some strange reason, people here take my threads on Phatmass and think that my entire life revolves around Islam! Absolutely weird. Again, this phenomena only seems to apply to me.

What if I saw you discussing and debating anarchism in a few threads. Would you appreciate it if I told you that you had an unhealthy obsession? Do you know how many negative points I would receive if I said something rude like that?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='16 May 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1274043786' post='2111532']
Where he is? Let's say he's in India, and he throws acid on the face of a woman who refuses to marry him. What happens to him?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


That depends on where he is in India. If he is in one of the more modern areas one would hope that he would be arrested or otherwise punished, if he is in one of the more traditional areas I can't say. What is you general point? I think I can guess but I don't want to be presumptuous.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hassan' date='16 May 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1274043947' post='2111534']
That depends on where he is in India. If he is in one of the more modern areas one would hope that he would be arrested or otherwise punished, if he is in one of the more traditional areas I can't say. What is you general point? I think I can guess but I don't want to be presumptuous.
[/quote]

I think you are right in your guess about my point: there is no cohesion among the various sects all claiming to represent "true Mahometanism." Therefore, who are we to trust concerning what it actually means to be a true Mahometan of any sect? If there is no authority over all the sects, how can anyone be upset when someone makes blanket statements against a belief system, when an adherent claims to adhere to an overarching title, "Mahometan?"

~Sternhauser

Edited May 16, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Hassan]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='16 May 2010 - 05:08 PM' timestamp='1274044130' post='2111535']
I think you are right in your guess about my point: there is no cohesion among the various sects all claiming to represent "true Mahometanism."

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


I generally have a high regard for your opinion (despite my almost wholesale personal disagreement with it's substance), so I say this will genuine respect. I don't see how you can possibly argue that. There is not total cohesion to be sure. But within Sunni and Shia Islam respectively there is a great deal of cohesion between the particular schools and movements. Now there are some true outliers like Seyyed Qutb's Itemization of Leninism, but we can note that is an outlier precisely because it diverges in particular areas so significantly from what has historically been the Sunni mainstream.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='16 May 2010 - 05:08 PM' timestamp='1274044130' post='2111535']
I think you are right in your guess about my point: there is no cohesion among the various sects all claiming to represent "true Mahometanism." Therefore, who are we to trust concerning what it actually means to be a true Mahometan of any sect? [/QUOTE]

But there are teaching authorities within those particular sects. the vast majority of Muslims belong to one of the four schools of Sunni Islam. Those four schools are very cohesive in their ideology and have very concrete teachings on just about every aspects of an individuals life.

[QUOTE] If there is no authority over all the sects, how can anyone be upset when someone makes blanket statements against a belief system, when an adherent claims to adhere to an overarching title, "Mahometan?"

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

That works against you. The internal diversity makes it even more vapid to make a general claim that 'x' is what true Islam is. You can say 'x' is the historical and mainstream Sunni position. or 'x' is what Qutb and his followers like Bin Laden view as the matter, but making a generalization is very difficult.