16 Year Old Confronts Anti Israel Protesters

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' date='14 June 2010 - 01:15 PM' timestamp='1276535714' post='2128576']
You have clearly approached this decision with a great deal of study and thought.
[/quote]

This type of comment does nothing to facilitate good and thoughtful dialogue.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 June 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1276537130' post='2128608']
This type of comment does nothing to facilitate good and thoughtful dialogue.
[/quote]

I guess you are right.

[Rebecca2009]

Well, I thought you meant it! Didn't sound any other way to me.

Just want to clarify that I know Jesus loves every person on this planet. He does not take pleasure in the death of anyone, but rather would that ALL come to eternal life. The world we live in is fallen and we all need His mercy.

As far as end time stuff goes, I don't spend a lot of time on it. Everything we see is only part of the picture. And I do support the Jews, but that does not mean I agree 100% with everything that the Israeli government does. But I do fully believe they are maligned in this world unfairly, and they always will be until Messiah returns!!!

I don't know if the Church doesn't like us to say Yahweh or not. Why wouldn't the Church want that? Is it an issue of respect?

[jeffpugh]

I remember HCF showing me that vid a while back. I commend the young man on his courage.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='14 June 2010 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1276535774' post='2128577']
I believe the Church discourages us from using "Yahweh", isn't that correct?
[/quote]
That is correct.



[quote][center][size="3"][b]Letter to the Bishops Conferences on The Name of God[/b][/size][/center]

[i]On June 29, 2008, Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, wrote to the presidents of all conferences of bishops, prohibiting use of the term Yahweh in the liturgy, particularly in hymns and Psalm translations.[/i]

[center][b]CONGREGATIO DE CULTU DIVINO ET DISCIPLINA SACRAMENTORUM[/b][/center]

[i]Prot. no. 213/08/L Rome
Rome, June 29, 2008[/i]

Your Eminence / Your Excellency,

By directive of the Holy Father, in accord with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, this Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments deems it convenient to communicate to the bishops' conferences the following as regards the translation and the pronunciation, in a liturgical setting, of the divine Name signified in the sacred tetragrammaton, along with a number of directives.

The replies received from the bishops’ conferences were studied by the two Congregations, and a report was made to the Holy Father. At his direction, this Congregation now writes to Your Eminence / Your Excellency in the following terms:

I. Exposition

1. The words of Sacred Scripture contained in the Old and New Testament express truth which transcends the limits imposed by time and place. They are the Word of God expressed in human words. By means of these words of life, the Holy Spirit introduces the faithful to knowledge of the truth, whole and entire; and thus the Word Christ comes to dwell in the faithful in all its richness (cf. Jn 14:26; 16:12-15.) In order that the Word of God, written in the sacred texts, may be conserved and transmitted in an integral and faithful manner, every modern translation of the books of the Bible aims at being a faithful and accurate transposition of the original texts. Such a literary effort requires that the original text be translated with maximum integrity and accuracy, without omissions or additions with regard to the contents and without introducing explanatory glosses or paraphrases which do not belong to the sacred text itself.

As regards the sacred name of God himself, translators must use the greatest faithfulness and respect. In particular, as the Instruction Liturgiam authenticam (n. 41) states:

In accordance with immemorial tradition, which indeed is already evident in the above- mentioned Septuagint version, the name of almighty God expressed by the Hebrew tetragrammaton and rendered in Latin by the word Dominus, is to be rendered into any given vernacular by a word equivalent in meaning.

[Iuxta traditionem ab immemorabili receptam, immo in (...)versione "LXX virorum" iam perspicuam, nomen Dei omnipotentis, sacro tetragrammate hebaraice expressum, latine vocabulo "Dominus" in quavis lingua populari vocabulo quodam eiusdem significationis reddatur.]

Notwithstanding such a clear norm, in recent years the practice has crept in of pronouncing the God of Israel's proper name, known as the holy or divine tetragrammaton, written with four consonants of the Hebrew alphabet in form הךהי, YHWH. The practice of vocalizing it is met with both in the reading of biblical texts taken from the lectionary, as well as in prayers and hymns.

It occurs in diverse written and spoken forms, for example, Yahweh, Yahwè, Jahweh, Jahwè, Jave, Yehovah, etc. It is therefore our intention, with the present letter, to set out some essential facts which lie behind the above-mentioned norm and to establish some directives to be observed in this matter.

2. The venerable biblical tradition of Sacred Scripture, known as the Old Testament, displays a series of divine appellations, among which is the sacred name of God revealed in the tetragrammaton YHWH הךהי. As an expression of the infinite greatness and majesty of God, it was held to be unpronounceable and hence was replaced during the reading of Sacred Scripture by means of the use of an alternate name: Adonai, which means "Lord."

The Greek translation of the Old Testament, the so-called Septuagint, dating back to the last centuries prior to the Christian era, had regularly rendered the Hebrew tetragrammaton with the Greek word Kyrios, which means "Lord." Since the text of the Septuagint constituted the Bible of the first generation of Greek-speaking Christians, in which language all the books of the New Testament were also written, these Christians, too, from the beginning never pronounced the divine tetragrammaton. Something similar happened likewise for Latin-speaking Christians, whose literature began to emerge from the second century, as first the Vetus Latina and, later, the Vulgate of St. Jerome attest. In these translations, too, the tetragrammaton was regularly replaced with the Latin word Dominus, corresponding both to the Hebrew Adonai and to the Greek Kyrios. The same holds for the recent Neo-Vulgate which the Church employs in the liturgy.

This fact has had important implications for New Testament Christology itself. When in fact St. Paul, with regard to the crucifixion, writes that "God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name" (Phil 2:9), he does not mean any name other than "Lord," for he continues by saying, "and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" (Phil 2:11; cf. Is 42:8: "I am the Lord; that is my name.") The attribution of this title to the risen Christ corresponds exactly to the proclamation of his divinity. The title in fact becomes interchangeable between the God of Israel and the Messiah of the Christian faith, even though it is not in fact one of the titles used for the Messiah of Israel.

In the strictly theological sense, this title is found, for example, already in the first canonical Gospel (cf. Mt 1:20: "The angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream.") One sees it as a rule in Old Testament citations in the New Testament (cf. Acts 2:20): " The sun shall be turned into darkness. . . before the day of the Lord comes (Joel 3:4); 1 Peter 1:25: "The word of the Lord abides for ever" (Is 40:8)..

However, in the properly Christological sense, apart from the text cited of Philippians 2:9-11, one can remember Romans 10:9 ("If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved"), 1 Corinthians 2:8 ("they would not have crucified the Lord of glory"), 1 Corinthians 12:3 ("No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit") and the frequent formula concerning the Christian who lives "in the Lord" (Rom 16:2; 1 Cor 7:22, 1 Thes 3:8; etc).

3. Avoiding pronouncing the tetragrammaton of the name of God on the part of the Church has therefore its own [rationale]. Apart from a motive of a purely philological order, there is also that of remaining faithful to the Church's tradition, from the beginning, that the sacred tetragrammaton was never pronounced in the Christian context nor translated into any of the languages into which the Bible was translated.

II. Directives

In light of what has [just] been expounded, the following directives are to be observed:

1. In liturgical celebrations, in songs and prayers the name of God in the form of the tetragrammaton YHWH is neither to be used or pronounced.

2. For the translation of the biblical text in modern languages, intended for the liturgical usage of the Church, what is already prescribed by n. 41 of the Instruction Liturgiam authenticam is to be followed; that is, the divine tetragrammaton is to be rendered by the equivalent of Adonai/Kyrios; "Lord," Signore, Seigneur, Herr, Señor, etc.

3. In translating, in the liturgical context, texts in which are present, one after the other, either the Hebrew term Adonai or the tetragrammaton YHWH, Adonai is to be translated "Lord" and the [word] "God" is to be used for the tetragrammaton YHWH, similar to what happens in the Greek translation of the Septuagint and in the Latin translation of the Vulgate.

Francis Cardinal Arinze
Prefect

Albert Malcolm Ranjith
Archbishop Secretary[/quote]

Source: [url="http://www.adoremus.org/CDW_NameofGod.html"]Adoremus[/url]

[Maggyie]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 June 2010 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1276534965' post='2128563']
So your claim of "if you talk to Catholics in Palestine and Israel they will tell you they aren't too fond of Israel" is really just a generalization based on the x amount of Catholics your parish has hosted. I find it a bit silly that you talk about the importance of being critical of both sides of the conflict but have no problem jumping to the conclusion that Catholics dislike Israel based on the opinions of a select few.
[/quote]


[quote name='XIX' date='14 June 2010 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1276536592' post='2128596']
How many people are we talking about? Is it four out of five who are expressing anguish? Five out of five? Five hundred out of five hundred? 450 out of 500?
[/quote]

I would say these are 10-15 people whom I know feel this way (a couple different parishes do this). My impression is that this is the common feeling among Palestinian Christians. They (and the former Latin Patriarch) are not speaking out of a vacuum. I'm sure there are some, somewhere in Palestine who would describe themselves as "pro-Israel" but they are likely outliers. See the "Kairos Palestine Document," signed by the leaders of most of the major area churches (including the then-Latin Patriarch) for more. I think you can find it on the WCC site.

[Apotheoun]

The Christian population throughout the Middle East is in rapid decline, and Israel is not the primary reason for the exodus. Persecution by Muslims has even begun to impact the population levels of the Coptic Oriental Church in Egypt.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 June 2010 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1276541877' post='2128648']
That is correct.

Source: [url="http://www.adoremus.org/CDW_NameofGod.html"]Adoremus[/url]
[/quote]
Finally got one right. Booya!

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Maggie' date='14 June 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1276542740' post='2128652']
I would say these are 10-15 people whom I know feel this way (a couple different parishes do this). My impression is that this is the common feeling among Palestinian Christians. They (and the former Latin Patriarch) are not speaking out of a vacuum. I'm sure there are some, somewhere in Palestine who would describe themselves as "pro-Israel" but they are likely outliers. See the "Kairos Palestine Document," signed by the leaders of most of the major area churches (including the then-Latin Patriarch) for more. I think you can find it on the WCC site.
[/quote]

You have concluded that it is common for Christians in Israel - earlier you said "Catholics" but I see you have now changed it to "Christians" - to dislike Israel or to not have a very favorable view of Israel based on the opinions of about a dozen Catholics.

That a few parishes also host Catholics from Israel is irrelevant; that you would include it after stating the 10-15 people suggests that you are trying to imply those Catholics feel the same. Without even knowing those Catholics.

In the introduction to that document I see the phrase "under the Israeli occupation" - there is NO occupation. Israel is a country.

[dominicansoul]

I don't know much about the situation with Christians in Israel, but I tend to think that because the Christians in Israel are a minority, and because of the differences in beliefs, they don't receive much respect from the muslims who worship a god who is foreign to us, nor from the Jews who worship a Father they don't really know...

[Maggyie]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 June 2010 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1276546521' post='2128729']
You have concluded that it is common for Christians in Israel - earlier you said "Catholics" but I see you have now changed it to "Christians" - to dislike Israel or to not have a very favorable view of Israel based on the opinions of about a dozen Catholics.

That a few parishes also host Catholics from Israel is irrelevant; that you would include it after stating the 10-15 people suggests that you are trying to imply those Catholics feel the same. Without even knowing those Catholics.

In the introduction to that document I see the phrase "under the Israeli occupation" - there is NO occupation. Israel is a country.
[/quote]

I use Christian and Catholic interchangeably, although I think 50 percent of the Christians in the Holy Land are Orthodox? I'm sorry you didn't read the full document due to the offending word "occupation" - and I agree it is a loaded word - but you don't have to, if you scroll to the bottom you will see a list of all the Christian leaders of various groups who signed it. It IS a fairly melodramatic document but I think it does show the truth as the Christian Palestinians largely see it. Let me be clear I have not polled every Catholic living in Palestine, but I have never, ever heard of one defending Israel. Again, Israeli policies designed to control Palestine damage the lives of EVERYone there, not just Muslims. There is no exemption given to Palestinian Christians for any of the policies.

Muslim persecution certainly plays a role I am sure - who wants to live in a war zone, anyway - but I think the biggest problem imperiling the demographic survivial of the Palestinian Christians is economic, and that is due mostly to the Wall. Of course the existence of the Wall itself is due to people crossing over and blowing themselves up. And round and round we go.

I hope I do not appear anti-Israel... not only do I believe Israel has a right to exist, I believe there is no chance for peace until there is acknowledgement that Palestinian culture is depraved and has largely enshrined Death as their god. That doesn't change the fact that most people of all faiths living IN Palestine don't feel that way.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Maggie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='14 June 2010 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1276548635' post='2128768']
I don't know much about the situation with Christians in Israel, but I tend to think that because the Christians in Israel are a minority, and because of the differences in beliefs, they don't receive much respect from the muslims who worship a god who is foreign to us, nor from the Jews who worship a Father they don't really know...
[/quote]
Yes Christians throughout the Middle East are in a bad situation, which is why more than 2 million have fled the region in just the last 15 years.

Let us pray that persecution of Christians in that region end soon, so that the message of Christ not vanish entirely from that area of the world.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Maggie' date='14 June 2010 - 05:10 PM' timestamp='1276549814' post='2128794']
I'm sorry you didn't read the full document due to the offending word "occupation"
[/quote]

Yes, that is I. The sensitive soul who ignored a document due to the word "occupation".

It is clear by the phrase "Israeli occupation" that the people are bias against Israel or rather they truly believe Israel is not a country by their upbringing and culture. Mosab Yousef served as a spy for the Shin Bet for twelve years and yet in his book he constantly referred to "the occupation".

More later I am going out soon.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 June 2010 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1276546521' post='2128729']

In the introduction to that document I see the phrase "under the Israeli occupation" - there is NO occupation. Israel is a country.
[/quote]


Based on the references to Settlements I think it is safe to assume that there are not referring to the borders of Israel proper but rather the occupied territories. These territories are not part of Israel. The American government does not recognize them as part of Israel proper and neither does international law. I don't know about the official position of the Israeli government, but practically speaking at least, Israel also recognizes them as distinct from Israel proper. These are areas like Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Hassan

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 June 2010 - 08:02 AM' timestamp='1276527744' post='2128521']
Propaganda? Do you think that the transmission recordings were fabricated?
[/quote]

I wouldnt go so far as to say "fabricated", but afaik, Israel has not released a full, unedited version of the tapes, which i find suspicious. and they confiscated all the video and pictures etc they could, and have yet to release anything other than small edited cuts of them.