Is This Ok To Listen To?

[Crispy]

I have been wrestling for a while over where to draw the moral-line with music. There is much we could discuss here, so I'll get straight to the point. I ran across some epic-sounding music in a YouTube video. It was a montage of film clips. The music is instrumental and choir voice, though there are no discernible lyrics to the vocals (could be just neutral syllables they're singing).

Anyway, the music is grand-sounding and awesome, so I looked up the name of the track and the artist so I could buy it on iTunes. The group's name is "Two Steps from Hell". I checked out their website, and it does not give glory to God. The site, the album art, and album names are mostly dark themed.

I really like the music of this group. They seem to specialize in music for movie soundtracks, so immoral lyrics shouldn't be a deterring factor. The song from the video is "Heart of Courage". Still, I am afraid to buy this song on iTunes because I don't want to be supporting the group if it would be immoral to do so.

What do you guys think? Do I need to stay away from this music group and their work? I need solid answers on this with good reasoning behind it.

Thanks,
Crispy

[Cherie]

[quote name='Crispy' date='17 June 2010 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1276826323' post='2130715']
I have been wrestling for a while over where to draw the moral-line with music. There is much we could discuss here, so I'll get straight to the point. I ran across some epic-sounding music in a YouTube video. It was a montage of film clips. The music is instrumental and choir voice, though there are no discernible lyrics to the vocals (could be just neutral syllables they're singing).

Anyway, the music is grand-sounding and awesome, so I looked up the name of the track and the artist so I could buy it on iTunes. The group's name is "Two Steps from Hell". I checked out their website, and it does not give glory to God. The site, the album art, and album names are mostly dark themed.

I really like the music of this group. They seem to specialize in music for movie soundtracks, so immoral lyrics shouldn't be a deterring factor. The song from the video is "Heart of Courage". Still, I am afraid to buy this song on iTunes because I don't want to be supporting the group if it would be immoral to do so.

What do you guys think? Do I need to stay away from this music group and their work? I need solid answers on this with good reasoning behind it.

Thanks,
Crispy
[/quote]

There was an excellent series on the Morality of Music written by Prior Peter Funk, OSB. I have contacted him and have asked him to send me the articles, if he doesn't mind. If he sends them to me, which I certainly hope he will, I will post it here. He definitely gives solid answers with good reasoning!

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='CherieMadame' date='17 June 2010 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1276833186' post='2130758']
There was an excellent series on the Morality of Music written by Prior Peter Funk, OSB. I have contacted him and have asked him to send me the articles, if he doesn't mind. If he sends them to me, which I certainly hope he will, I will post it here. He definitely gives solid answers with good reasoning!
[/quote]

Are these the full articles, or no?

http://chicagomonk.blogspot.com/2008/09/music-and-morality-1.html

http://chicagomonk.blogspot.com/2008/09/music-and-morality-part-2.html

http://chicagomonk.blogspot.com/2008/09/music-and-morality-3-passions.html

http://chicagomonk.blogspot.com/2008/10/music-and-morality-4-problem-of-culture.html

[Cherie]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='18 June 2010 - 12:15 AM' timestamp='1276834539' post='2130765']
Are these the full articles, or no?

[url="http://chicagomonk.blogspot.com/2008/09/music-and-morality-1.html"]http://chicagomonk.b...morality-1.html[/url]

[url="http://chicagomonk.blogspot.com/2008/09/music-and-morality-part-2.html"]http://chicagomonk.b...ity-part-2.html[/url]

[url="http://chicagomonk.blogspot.com/2008/09/music-and-morality-3-passions.html"]http://chicagomonk.b...3-passions.html[/url]

[url="http://chicagomonk.blogspot.com/2008/10/music-and-morality-4-problem-of-culture.html"]http://chicagomonk.b...of-culture.html[/url]
[/quote]



Hey, give me a break, I was in the convent for five years ... I'm not the best googler in the world

But thanks for posting them! That's precisely what I was referring to Hopefully I'll get confirmation from the Prior himself, and perhaps he has some other resources to add.

Edited June 18, 2010 by CherieMadame

[goldenchild17]

no problem google's kinda my thing. One of the few things I do well.

[Bennn]

I came from a black/death metal scene that had 'Christianized' lyrics. Some kinds of music are intrinsically bad, even when they try to sugar coat it with 'Christian' lyrics. I've learned that when your conscience condemns you for listening to certain music, you shouldn't be listening to it at all. What communion is there possible between Christ and belial?

I try to restrict myself solely to sacred music now.

+Pax Domini,
Ben

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Bennn' date='18 June 2010 - 07:40 AM' timestamp='1276864812' post='2130834']
Some kinds of music are intrinsically bad, even when they try to sugar coat it with 'Christian' lyrics.
[/quote]

I disagree. While certain kinds of music my be bad in certain contexts (such as rock music in a liturgical setting or Gregorian chant at a dance party), I do not think that particular kinds of music are inherently bad. While the lyrics of certain songs can make such music bad, I think that metal is fine as long as the lyrics are not bad.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='18 June 2010 - 09:02 AM' timestamp='1276866153' post='2130836']
I disagree. While certain kinds of music my be bad in certain contexts (such as rock music in a liturgical setting or Gregorian chant at a dance party), I do not think that particular kinds of music are inherently bad. While the lyrics of certain songs can make such music bad, I think that metal is fine as long as the lyrics are not bad.
[/quote]

I would add to that the band itself, many metal bands use satanic imagery or symbolism. So while a few songs from a particular band such as that may not contain objectionable lyrics listening to such a band would be cooperation with evil of some sort. And the band in question from the QP seems to be such a band... the lyrics seem to have a lot to do with the devil.

[Bennn]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='18 June 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1276866153' post='2130836']
I disagree. While certain kinds of music my be bad in certain contexts (such as rock music in a liturgical setting or Gregorian chant at a dance party), I do not think that particular kinds of music are inherently bad. While the lyrics of certain songs can make such music bad, I think that metal is fine as long as the lyrics are not bad.
[/quote]

I do think rock/metal incites the flesh to some kind of ecstatic rage, which can even develop into a cultish character like you see at festivals etc. Especially death and black metal is intrinsically wrong, mostly because of the screeching and grunting vocals. I find it very contradictory to try and sound like a demon, while adding Christian lyrics to it.

+Pax Domini,
Ben

[Cherie]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='18 June 2010 - 09:02 AM' timestamp='1276866153' post='2130836']
I disagree. While certain kinds of music my be bad in certain contexts (such as rock music in a liturgical setting or Gregorian chant at a dance party), I do not think that particular kinds of music are inherently bad. While the lyrics of certain songs can make such music bad, I think that metal is fine as long as the lyrics are not bad.
[/quote]



This is, in essence, the "[u]Great Debate[/u]" when it comes to music. When I was in the convent, this was definitely part of [b]many [/b]a heated discussion, not-so-much among the Sisters themselves, but among the Sisters and retreatants or priests and retreatants.

For me, I fall into the "some-kinds-of-music-are-intrinsically-immoral" camp. I have reputable people, theology, philosophy to back me up on that. However, people in the "other" camp have reputable people, theology, philosophy to back them up, too. And I certainly respect others' opinions and enjoy discussion on this very topic! (So Resurrexi, please know I certainly respect your opinion on that, and I'm not in any way trying to say you are necessarily wrong!)

For me, music is so much more than the lyrics - it's an organic WHOLE, where, for some kinds, it's not possible to make what is intrinsically bad "good" by simply changing the lyrics[i].[/i] Fr. Basil Nortz, OSC has a lecture series on this very topic. He makes a compelling argument for the fact that some music IS intrinsically evil.

I don't think, however, that sacred music is the only music worth listening to. Granted, I guess you could say I have a preference for it, but I enjoy a very eclectic mix of other kinds of music, as well -- and not only in the "Christian" genre, either.

[Nihil Obstat]

Those articles posted above accurately reflect my opinions regarding the inherent morality of different types of music.

[Crispy]

I think I listened to the lectures of Fr. Basil on CD at Franciscan U for a class, if he's the Fr. Basil that's part of the Opus Angelorum Sanctorum. He made the claim, which I agree with, that some kinds of music are evil in what they are. Music that incites chaos (as opposed to just being energetic), is written chaotically (i.e. liberal amounts of dissonance, frequently not resolving chord progressions, etc.), and which involves lots of screaming and jarring noise; I believe this kind of music is intrinsically evil. The lyrics can incidentally make music evil too, but there needn't be crude lyrics for a song to be evil in what it is.

I don't think that all rock music (and I know this is a very vague label to use) is intrinsically evil, but a lot is. When a band actively promotes satanic themes, violence, rebellion, and lust, it is immoral to support their music. Much of the popular rock music form the past 40 years falls into this category.

As I think this all out, I'm 90% sure I shouldn't support "Two Steps from Hell" by buying their song "Heart of Courage" on iTunes. I still wonder though if its ok to support something good they've made. The song in question is good, as far as I can tell. Could it be a way for affirming the good they've created, or is this still supporting evil? I know that there is a USCCB or Vatican document about a Catholic approach to media that says we shouldn't not support a movie just because an actor in it was in an immoral movie in the past. Is this a similar case?

[eustace scrubb]

I'd like to read those documents when I'm more awake. I've argued and discussed the validity of many different forms of art (including the aforementioned genres of metal), but that was entirely from a Protestant perspective. It's probably fair to say that things are a bit different on this side of the fence.

[Ziggamafu]

Would you refrain from beholding any wing of an art museum, save the Catholic works? You realize that there are more than a few pagan works of art in the Vatican, right? All beauty comes from God, but not all expressions of beauty look the same. Just go with your gut. If something is a stumbling block or clearly troublesome for your conscience, avoid it. If you experienced beauty in the song then relish in it, for beauty can only come from God, even if such grace is unintended by the vessel through which it is manifested in our world.

[Crispy]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='19 June 2010 - 12:07 PM' timestamp='1276960043' post='2131422']
Would you refrain from beholding any wing of an art museum, save the Catholic works? You realize that there are more than a few pagan works of art in the Vatican, right? All beauty comes from God, but not all expressions of beauty look the same. Just go with your gut. If something is a stumbling block or clearly troublesome for your conscience, avoid it. If you experienced beauty in the song then relish in it, for beauty can only come from God, even if such grace is unintended by the vessel through which it is manifested in our world.
[/quote]

My issue is not that art must be sacred or Catholic for me to enjoy it and appreciate it's beauty. My issue is whether or not it is ok to buy a song from a music group that generally has a dark theme about them (save some exceptions like in the song I want to buy). The song itself I think is fine to listen to in itself. I just don't know if the context makes buying the song or telling people about it scandalous. If I were to tell people about the song being really epic and cool, and they look it up to buy it, I don't want them scandalized. I also don't want them giving money to the music group if just doing that is immoral, given the dark public persona they have.