Crispy Posted June 19, 2010 Author Share Posted June 19, 2010 [quote name='eustace scrubb' date='19 June 2010 - 11:22 AM' timestamp='1276957352' post='2131406'] I'd like to read those documents when I'm more awake. I've argued and discussed the validity of many different forms of art (including the aforementioned genres of metal), but that was entirely from a Protestant perspective. It's probably fair to say that things are a bit different on this side of the fence. [/quote] I can't remember the name of the document. I have it written down in my notes from a catechetics class, but those are stored away elsewhere now. You could try surfing around the USCCB website. I just did, and there are a number of Vatican and USCCB documents about media and communications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I based my opinion on the title of the thread and the OP, which seemed to express more concern with listening to the music rather than purchasing it. If we based our aesthetics-related purchases on the moral qualities of the artists behind them, I fear that we would have a tragically small collection. The only times I would feel immoral in purchasing music is if the music store was operated by slave labor, is I am for whatever reason personally scandalized by it, or if the musicians publicly used profits for anti-Catholic purposes (including publicized donations to pro-choice groups, etc.). What they do privately with their money is their business, but it is a public issue that they donate some of the money to something off-base, that's a bit different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='18 June 2010 - 06:02 AM' timestamp='1276866153' post='2130836'] I disagree. While certain kinds of music my be bad in certain contexts (such as rock music in a liturgical setting or Gregorian chant at a dance party), I do not think that particular kinds of music are inherently bad. While the lyrics of certain songs can make such music bad, I think that metal is fine as long as the lyrics are not bad. [/quote] completely agreed. [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 June 2010 - 06:44 AM' timestamp='1276868649' post='2130850'] I would add to that the band itself, many metal bands use satanic imagery or symbolism. So while a few songs from a particular band such as that may not contain objectionable lyrics listening to such a band would be cooperation with evil of some sort. And the band in question from the QP seems to be such a band... the lyrics seem to have a lot to do with the devil. [/quote] this is true. it is worth noting however, that while the symbolism is somewhat common, band members actually being theistic satanists or really believing in that stuff are few and far between. A lot of objectionable lyrics are done very "tongue in cheek" [quote name='Bennn' date='18 June 2010 - 06:53 AM' timestamp='1276869214' post='2130856'] I do think rock/metal incites the flesh to some kind of ecstatic rage, which can even develop into a cultish character like you see at festivals etc. Especially death and black metal is intrinsically wrong, mostly because of the screeching and grunting vocals. I find it very contradictory to try and sound like a demon, while adding Christian lyrics to it. [/quote] how do you know a demon sounds like that? my guess is they would sound more like a "friendly" human. regardless, i would disagree with that statement as well. Despite the fact that people dont generally like them, they often do fit the music, and i doubt they are intrinsically wrong in any way. yeah they are aggresive, and lyrics may not be very nice, but i have seen and read worse in popular horror movies, books etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crispy Posted June 19, 2010 Author Share Posted June 19, 2010 [quote name='Ziggamafu' date='19 June 2010 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1276974893' post='2131537'] I based my opinion on the title of the thread and the OP, which seemed to express more concern with listening to the music rather than purchasing it. If we based our aesthetics-related purchases on the moral qualities of the artists behind them, I fear that we would have a tragically small collection. The only times I would feel immoral in purchasing music is if the music store was operated by slave labor, is I am for whatever reason personally scandalized by it, or if the musicians publicly used profits for anti-Catholic purposes (including publicized donations to pro-choice groups, etc.). What they do privately with their money is their business, but it is a public issue that they donate some of the money to something off-base, that's a bit different. [/quote] That makes a lot of sense. Just to be clear though, would you have a problem buying music from a band with a name like "Two Steps from Hell", and not just buying from them but associating your particular music tastes with that group? Ex: "Hey, there's a great piece by 'Two Steps from Hell' which is in the trailer for the movie [i]Avatar[/i] [which it really is]. You should go check it out." And we're noting that the website and the way that the group wants to be publicly known is questionable. See here (it is dark, but not obscene to the point that it's dangerous to view the site): [url="http://www.twostepsfromhell.com/index-home.php"]http://www.twostepsfromhell.com/index-home.php[/url] Scandal or no? I know this is getting really specific, but knowing a solid answer to these questions will give me a good moral reference point for myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennn Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='19 June 2010 - 09:20 PM' timestamp='1276975206' post='2131542'] how do you know a demon sounds like that? my guess is they would sound more like a "friendly" human. regardless, i would disagree with that statement as well. Despite the fact that people dont generally like them, they often do fit the music, and i doubt they are intrinsically wrong in any way. yeah they are aggresive, and lyrics may not be very nice, but i have seen and read worse in popular horror movies, books etc. [/quote] Hence the fact that I don't watch horror movies or books. I've heard the 'what does a demon sound like' argument before and even held it as my own before I became Catholic. I believe the argument is invalid. The first thing an outsider will say when he hears such vocals is: "He sounds like a demon." If you read about the experiences of Mystics/Saints you will notice that when the devil's 'friendly' lures fail, he starts growling like a beast in order to scare them. I firmly believe that a Saint would not see any beauty in such music. One doesn't turn it around and say: "Maybe Angels speak in such a growling voice as well." Such way of thought is obviously erroneous. It's not like I am just some ignorant guy who's never gotten in touch with it. The sad fact is that I have been in that black/death subculture, albeit a 'Christian' variant of it, and I wish I had never done it because it has caused grave, serious damage to my life. This was before I was Catholic, in my non-denominational period, though. I believe that some kinds of music are objectively evil. +Pax Domini, Ben Edited June 19, 2010 by Bennn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 [quote name='Crispy' date='19 June 2010 - 04:42 PM' timestamp='1276980174' post='2131567'] That makes a lot of sense. Just to be clear though, would you have a problem buying music from a band with a name like "Two Steps from Hell", and not just buying from them but associating your particular music tastes with that group? Ex: "Hey, there's a great piece by 'Two Steps from Hell' which is in the trailer for the movie [i]Avatar[/i] [which it really is]. You should go check it out." And we're noting that the website and the way that the group wants to be publicly known is questionable. See here (it is dark, but not obscene to the point that it's dangerous to view the site): [url="http://www.twostepsfromhell.com/index-home.php"]http://www.twostepsfromhell.com/index-home.php[/url] Scandal or no? I know this is getting really specific, but knowing a solid answer to these questions will give me a good moral reference point for myself. [/quote] I say no, but it really does sound like you might have a personal issue with all this. I think you should consult a priest. But personally, I would have no problem with it. Do they choose a dark name and dark artwork? Yes. Will they win any awards for positivity or Christian values? Probably not anytime soon, no. But again, if we based all our purchases on these kinds of issues we would have a very small appreciation for the humanities. There is no overt anti-Catholic agenda in the band itself, so far as I can tell. And even if there were, I wouldn't feel burdened by my enjoyment of a particular song that has no overt evils about it. If you tell others you enjoy the song, I think if anything they will be curious (or you can just jump into a conversation) about the beauty in Catholic theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted June 20, 2010 Share Posted June 20, 2010 (edited) personal issues with music are all well and good, everyone has different tastes, but if your enjoyment of music hinges around other peoples view and approval of that music, then you are doing it wrong. unless the artist in question is Ke$ha. take notes rexi. Edited June 20, 2010 by Jesus_lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 i implore all you phriends to take heed the warnings about listening to satanic themed rock... i personally know a person who's life was destroyed by his fanaticism with dark, evil, heavy metal rock... there is some sort of satanic power in it, that can really control your thoughts... i think it's like when we sing gregorian chant, even if we might not understand the words it's a PRAYER to God... the same can be said by the satanic lyrics of a rock song...even if we try to "ignore" the lyrics and just enjoy the music, we are really participating in some sort of "prayer" to evil...some sort of honor to the devil.... this person I am speaking of? I saw as he slowly came under the influence of an evil spirit....he just wasn't himself anymore....he was someone I loved more than my own life.....shortly before taking his own life, I saw him battling with this evil influence...he tried to resist... I just pray that Our Lady was with him at the hour of his death, because he did pray the Rosary for the majority of his life.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 [quote name='dominicansoul' date='20 June 2010 - 10:56 PM' timestamp='1277088987' post='2131967'] i implore all you phriends to take heed the warnings about listening to satanic themed rock... i personally know a person who's life was destroyed by his fanaticism with dark, evil, heavy metal rock... there is some sort of satanic power in it, that can really control your thoughts... i think it's like when we sing gregorian chant, even if we might not understand the words it's a PRAYER to God... the same can be said by the satanic lyrics of a rock song...even if we try to "ignore" the lyrics and just enjoy the music, we are really participating in some sort of "prayer" to evil...some sort of honor to the devil.... this person I am speaking of? I saw as he slowly came under the influence of an evil spirit....he just wasn't himself anymore....he was someone I loved more than my own life.....shortly before taking his own life, I saw him battling with this evil influence...he tried to resist... I just pray that Our Lady was with him at the hour of his death, because he did pray the Rosary for the majority of his life.... [/quote] I don't listen to music with "satanic lyrics", although I don't think that any music that has them is objectively bad in and of itself, and may therefore be possibly used by music critics in the service of criticism. But it is difficult for me to imagine how a Christian can in good conscience [i]enjoy[/i] a song with satanic lyrics. I will give you an example. I love the music of an older band from several years ago, called Perfect Circle. Their tunes and melodies were quite beautiful and engaging, and their lyrics were pretty good too. But there was one song in which the lyrics tell, in the first person, of how difficult it is to understand Christians and really describes a hatred for Christianity and even Christ Himself. I can't listen to that song. Literally, I simply cannot stomach it, even though it has a great tune to it. Still, I can enjoy most of their other songs and don't feel qualms about having purchased their album since that song was not the explicit purpose of the album, nor is service to Satan the overt intent of the band, nor did contributions from sales go to some public anti-Catholic cause. It was just a song that expressed one aspect of some personal view (as most art does) and happened to be on that album. Similarly, if a particular artist or photographer had a particular work (or body of works) that seemed overtly pornographic or seemed to endorse some other sin, that would not stop me from enjoying there other work. I suppose the difference, for me, is in the overall mission of the artist and whether or not an overtly immoral work is the exception or the rule to the rest of the work (i.e., is it a particular statement of a particular view or is this the general norm and overarching message of all of the artist's work?). I also think that satanic content is different from dark themes. The 1989 (?) version of Batman was dark, but that doesn't mean it was Satanic. Dante's Inferno is crazy dark, but that doesn't make it satanic either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eustace scrubb Posted June 21, 2010 Share Posted June 21, 2010 It's 2010 and people still don't understand how to look at or interpret art. Even in one of the institutions which has created some of the greatest art the world has ever seen... blah. Zig, thanks for posting in this thread. It really annoys me when anyone blames someone's sin [i]entirely[/i] with with the music they were listening to. That is too easy. Almost lazy, even. Just the logical implications of it are completely absurd. You don't go and read a book and just go out and kill someone. Same with video games, music, etc. [b][i]Something was already going on inside of them.[/i][/b] If someone's traveling down a certain path, they're going to be attracted to things that validate their beliefs and feelings. It's just an outward symptom of what's already going on in their mind and spirit. And I'm saying this as someone who's lost several people to suicide, one of whom was an atheist and metalhead. His favorite band had highly satanic and anti-Christian themes. He didn't believe in God before he listened to them. Obtaining and enjoying that dark art had nothing to do with his actions. Being an atheist, going through some insane things, making poor decisions, and getting drunk enough to finally act on his feelings did. I used to listen to some satanic music years ago, but God told me to drop it and slowly, with the help of the Holy Spirit, I did. The closer I moved towards God, the less of an interest I had in what I was listening to. It was distasteful and disgusting to me. Right now, my favorite music is Bach. I don't think I've heard anything more beautiful and moving than the Passion of St. Matthew and the Magnificat. And I'm saying that as a professional music journalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crispy Posted June 22, 2010 Author Share Posted June 22, 2010 [quote name='eustace scrubb' date='21 June 2010 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1277131269' post='2132171'] Zig, thanks for posting in this thread. It really annoys me when anyone blames someone's sin [i]entirely[/i] with with the music they were listening to. That is too easy. Almost lazy, even. Just the logical implications of it are completely absurd. You don't go and read a book and just go out and kill someone. Same with video games, music, etc. [b][i]Something was already going on inside of them.[/i][/b] If someone's traveling down a certain path, they're going to be attracted to things that validate their beliefs and feelings. It's just an outward symptom of what's already going on in their mind and spirit. And I'm saying this as someone who's lost several people to suicide, one of whom was an atheist and metalhead. His favorite band had highly satanic and anti-Christian themes. He didn't believe in God before he listened to them. Obtaining and enjoying that dark art had nothing to do with his actions. Being an atheist, going through some insane things, making poor decisions, and getting drunk enough to finally act on his feelings did. [/quote] I can see you point, and I do agree that you can't blame one's actions completely on the music they listen to. I would contend though that the music one listens to is not merely an "outward symptom" of their interior life. I think it's both/and. While you can't blame all someone's bad actions on the music they listen to, I think the wrong music [i]can[/i] influence a person to do evil. Music can be both a sign of pre-existing corruption and a source of corruption itself. Corrupt fruit comes from corrupt seed. An atheist with twisted passions getting into death metal indeed had corrupt seeds planted before the music hit him. But I'm positive that the music made it worse, amplifying the corruption. Even for one who had little wrong about him prior to getting into death metal, I can see that music planting the seeds of vice and sin in him where there was little but minor evils, given the proper time for dulling of the conscience and the desire for the Good. This of course takes an act of the will on the person's part, but it's still right to say that the death metal brought about his moral and/or physical demise, if either of these were to happen. I find it hard to believe that listening to satanic music had no influence at all in your friend's actions. Even non-"satanic" music that is offensive or disturbing aesthetically will be a spiritual burden in some way, without question. We shouldn't ignore the spiritual dimension of music, how it spiritually affects the soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Crispy' date='21 June 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1277166033' post='2132497'] Even non-"satanic" music that is offensive or disturbing aesthetically will be a spiritual burden in some way, without question. We shouldn't ignore the spiritual dimension of music, how it spiritually affects the soul. [/quote] offensive or disturbing to you. I find it often quite beautiful. Edited June 22, 2010 by Jesus_lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 There are perhaps subject matters or forms of art which one can state is objectively aesthetically offensive or disturbing; instrumental music is not one such area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardillacid Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 [quote name='Bennn' date='18 June 2010 - 09:53 AM' timestamp='1276869214' post='2130856'] I do think rock/metal incites the flesh to some kind of ecstatic rage, which can even develop into a cultish character like you see at festivals etc. Especially death and black metal is intrinsically wrong, mostly because of the screeching and grunting vocals. I find it very contradictory to try and sound like a demon, while adding Christian lyrics to it. +Pax Domini, Ben [/quote] What does a demon sound like? Do you communicate with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennn Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 [quote name='notardillacid' date='22 June 2010 - 06:20 PM' timestamp='1277223625' post='2132767'] What does a demon sound like? Do you communicate with them? [/quote] I've adressed this argument earlier in this thread. +Pax Domini, Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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