Jaime Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Marie-Therese' date='01 July 2010 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1278016287' post='2136701'] Why in the world would you be hesitant to pray for someone?? I don't care what anyone says, I will pray for people regardless of how they might happen to feel about it. Anyone who refused prayers obviously has no idea of what is in their best interests in that regard. It's not like holding a gun to someone's head. The day I think I need permission to pray for someone's soul is the day that I think people's opinions are more important than God, and I don't see that day coming. [/quote] Well there is a little matter of free will to contend with. I pray for non believers all the time and I do it in a general sense with my rosary. But if someone (and this is rare) tells me "Please do not pray for me" I don't feel that I have the right to violate that person's free will. God gave them that. I struggle with the idea that my praying for someone who has asked me not to might infringe on their free will. I figure if God takes free will so seriously that I shouldn't treat it lightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1278092778' post='2136958'] Well there is a little matter of free will to contend with. I pray for non believers all the time and I do it in a general sense with my rosary. But if someone (and this is rare) tells me "Please do not pray for me" I don't feel that I have the right to violate that person's free will. God gave them that. I struggle with the idea that my praying for someone who has asked me not to might infringe on their free will. I figure if God takes free will so seriously that I shouldn't treat it lightly. [/quote] How is anyone's free will being violated if you pray for them? The person doesn't have to know you're praying for him. Forcing an atheist to "convert" at gunpoint would be violating his free will, but praying violates no one's free will. By praying for someone you are freely imploring God to freely bestow His graces upon someone who remains free to accept or reject those graces. I'm sure many who were converted by the prayers of others did not want those prayers initially. We're not obligated to do whatever anyone else tells us to do anyway. Praying for a person who's said he doesn't want prayers is no more wrong than rescuing a person trapped at the bottom of a well who says he doesn't want to be rescued, but to stray there and starve. It seems the whole concept of "free will" is abused quite a bit nowadays, used as a reason for everything from not praying for others to insisting that abortion must remain legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Socrates' date='02 July 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1278097946' post='2136992'] How is anyone's free will being violated if you pray for them? The person doesn't have to know you're praying for him. Forcing an atheist to "convert" at gunpoint would be violating his free will, but praying violates no one's free will. By praying for someone you are freely imploring God to freely bestow His graces upon someone who remains free to accept or reject those graces. I'm sure many who were converted by the prayers of others did not want those prayers initially. We're not obligated to do whatever anyone else tells us to do anyway. Praying for a person who's said he doesn't want prayers is no more wrong than rescuing a person trapped at the bottom of a well who says he doesn't want to be rescued, but to stray there and starve. It seems the whole concept of "free will" is abused quite a bit nowadays, used as a reason for everything from not praying for others to insisting that abortion must remain legal. [/quote] if a person requests that I don't pray for them and I still pray for them, I am not respecting their free will. And abortion has nothing to do with free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Socrates' date='02 July 2010 - 02:12 PM' timestamp='1278097946' post='2136992'] How is anyone's free will being violated if you pray for them? The person doesn't have to know you're praying for him. Forcing an atheist to "convert" at gunpoint would be violating his free will, but praying violates no one's free will. By praying for someone you are freely imploring God to freely bestow His graces upon someone who remains free to accept or reject those graces. I'm sure many who were converted by the prayers of others did not want those prayers initially. We're not obligated to do whatever anyone else tells us to do anyway. Praying for a person who's said he doesn't want prayers is no more wrong than rescuing a person trapped at the bottom of a well who says he doesn't want to be rescued, but to stray there and starve. It seems the whole concept of "free will" is abused quite a bit nowadays, used as a reason for everything from not praying for others to insisting that abortion must remain legal. [/quote] I had given you a +1, but, unfortunately, it appears that someone has taken the initiative to negate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 I think in fact that we have a moral obligation to pray more for someone who asks that we do not. Not out of spite, but because they clearly need it to an enormous degree. The spite part is fun too though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='02 July 2010 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1278100284' post='2137014'] I think in fact that we have a moral obligation to pray more for someone who asks that we do not. Not out of spite, but because they clearly need it to an enormous degree. The spite part is fun too though. [/quote] The next step in that logic Nihil is that God would have a moral obligation to save those who have asked not be saved. I don't think I'd agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 02:54 PM' timestamp='1278100468' post='2137017'] The next step in that logic Nihil is that God would have a moral obligation to save those who have asked not be saved. I don't think I'd agree with that. [/quote] I don't think that logically follows at all. We'd obviously be praying that they have a change of heart and freely choose to change themselves. That's a far cry from trying to somehow force or coerce them to be what we want them to be. I've got the parable of the lost sheep and the following one in mind right now. 3 And he spoke to them this parable, saying: 4 What man of you that hath an hundred sheep: and if he shall lose one of them, doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the desert, and go after that which was lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, lay it upon his shoulders, rejoicing: 6 And coming home, call together his friends and neighbours, saying to them: Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost? 7 I say to you, that even so [b]there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance[/b]. 8 Or what woman having ten groats; if she lose one groat, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently until she find it? 9 And when she hath found it, call together her friends and neighbours, saying:[b] Rejoice with me, because I have found the groat which I had lost. 10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance.[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='02 July 2010 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1278100284' post='2137014'] I think in fact that we have a moral obligation to pray more for someone who asks that we do not. Not out of spite, but because they clearly need it to an enormous degree. The spite part is fun too though. [/quote] Dude, this post rocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='02 July 2010 - 03:59 PM' timestamp='1278100793' post='2137022'] I don't think that logically follows at all. We'd obviously be praying that they have a change of heart and freely choose to change themselves. That's a far cry from trying to somehow force or coerce them to be what we want them to be. I've got the parable of the lost sheep and the following one in mind right now. 3 And he spoke to them this parable, saying: 4 What man of you that hath an hundred sheep: and if he shall lose one of them, doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the desert, and go after that which was lost, until he find it? 5 And when he hath found it, lay it upon his shoulders, rejoicing: 6 And coming home, call together his friends and neighbours, saying to them: Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost? 7 I say to you, that even so [b]there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance[/b]. 8 Or what woman having ten groats; if she lose one groat, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently until she find it? 9 And when she hath found it, call together her friends and neighbours, saying:[b] Rejoice with me, because I have found the groat which I had lost. 10 So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance.[/b] [/quote] I don't disagree with the parable at all. But I don't see how the parable backs up your point either. Absolutely there's a premium on the repentant sinner. But being a repentant sinner doesn't impinge on free will. Someone doesn't have to ask for my help to receive it. But if someone is very clear about not wanting my help and refusing to accept my help, then yes I struggle with the idea of helping them against their will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1278101275' post='2137033'] I don't disagree with the parable at all. But I don't see how the parable backs up your point either. Absolutely there's a premium on the repentant sinner. But being a repentant sinner doesn't impinge on free will. Someone doesn't have to ask for my help to receive it. But if someone is very clear about not wanting my help and refusing to accept my help, then yes I struggle with the idea of helping them against their will. [/quote] So in other words, we shouldn't pray that they receive the grace, wisdom, and faith that they may require to (freely) accept the Church and repent of their sins? Like I said, nobody is forcing them to do anything. I don't think it's possible in any sense for prayer to infringe on someone's free will. I'm disappointed that you don't see how those two parables support what I'm saying. I really don't know any other way to make it clearer. The shepherd leaves the 99 behind to find and bring back the one lost one. The woman tears her house apart looking for the single lost coin. Is that not prayer looking for the one sinner, to bring him to the Faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='02 July 2010 - 04:13 PM' timestamp='1278101586' post='2137034'] So in other words, we shouldn't pray that they receive the grace, wisdom, and faith that they may require to (freely) accept the Church and repent of their sins? Like I said, nobody is forcing them to do anything. I don't think it's possible in any sense for prayer to infringe on someone's free will. I'm disappointed that you don't see how those two parables support what I'm saying. I really don't know any other way to make it clearer. The shepherd leaves the 99 behind to find and bring back the one lost one. The woman tears her house apart looking for the single lost coin. Is that not prayer looking for the one sinner, to bring him to the Faith? [/quote] No that's Christ actively trying to get the sinner to turn around and come home. I actually like your interpretation of the parables. I think it goes to the power of prayer. But the protagonist in these are Jesus. He is the shepherd looking for lost sheep. He is the one cleaning and working to bring the one lost coin back. this is just one perspective Nihil. it can be a slippery slope to justify what we can do for others when they ask us not to. (Especially when we think we can justify it by saying "well they will be happy later") Yes I want Christopher Hitchens converted I wouldn't mind it if his cancer was healed I have no doubt Christ wants the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 03:20 PM' timestamp='1278102048' post='2137036'] No that's Christ actively trying to get the sinner to turn around and come home. I actually like your interpretation of the parables. I think it goes to the power of prayer. But the protagonist in these are Jesus. He is the shepherd looking for lost sheep. He is the one cleaning and working to bring the one lost coin back. [/quote] He doesn't violate their free will to do so either, does He? Shouldn't we work for the conversion of the unrepentant as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and [u]pray for them that persecute and calumniate you[/u]: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust. For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aalpha1989 Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 03:54 PM' timestamp='1278100468' post='2137017'] The next step in that logic Nihil is that God would have a moral obligation to save those who have asked not be saved. I don't think I'd agree with that. [/quote] That is not the next logical step... in fact it is a completely different topic. Unconverted men on earth are completely different from damned souls in Hell. Men on earth still have a chance; we are required to pray for the salvation of men because we are Christian. "Oh, my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell. [b]Bring all men into Heaven, [i]especially those in most need of thy mercy.[/i][/b]" The purpose of the Church is to effect the salvation of man. The most important thing She can do toward that end is to pray. The Devil would love for us not to pray for men who ask us not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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