MIKolbe Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='02 July 2010 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1278102672' post='2137041'] You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and [u]pray for them that persecute and calumniate you[/u]: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust. For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. [/quote] non-sequitor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='02 July 2010 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1278102330' post='2137039'] He doesn't violate their free will to do so either, does He? Shouldn't we work for the conversion of the unrepentant as well? [/quote] I'm not saying that at all. I pray for non believers when I pray the rosary. But there is a huge difference between a non believer and someone who is adamant about not believing. Hitchens has said on more than one occasion that if he found out that God existed, he'd never worship him because of all the "horrible things he's done and asked others to do". (I'm paraphrasing) That's different. I know of atheists who have said "I don't believe in God" but have followed up with "Because I need proof". Hitchens doesn't want proof. If he had it, he would likely reject God anyway. My cousin is a Jehovah Witness and they cannot receive blood transfusions. Its a part of their religion. Now I don't agree with just about everything Jehovah Witnesses ascribe to but he's got the right to believe in it. What's more he does so because he thinks it will save his soul. Now if he was ever in a car accident, he has specific instructions that he cannot receive a blood transfusion. So he would likely die. Wouldn't I be infringing on his free will if I gave him a pint or two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aalpha1989 Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='MIkolbe' date='02 July 2010 - 04:33 PM' timestamp='1278102795' post='2137043'] non-sequitor [/quote] I like that one too, but Pearls Before Swine is my favorite comic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1278102850' post='2137044'] I'm not saying that at all. I pray for non believers when I pray the rosary. But there is a huge difference between a non believer and someone who is adamant about not believing. Hitchens has said on more than one occasion that if he found out that God existed, he'd never worship him because of all the "horrible things he's done and asked others to do". (I'm paraphrasing) That's different. I know of atheists who have said "I don't believe in God" but have followed up with "Because I need proof". Hitchens doesn't want proof. If he had it, he would likely reject God anyway. My cousin is a Jehovah Witness and they cannot receive blood transfusions. Its a part of their religion. Now I don't agree with just about everything Jehovah Witnesses ascribe to but he's got the right to believe in it. What's more he does so because he thinks it will save his soul. Now if he was ever in a car accident, he has specific instructions that he cannot receive a blood transfusion. So he would likely die. Wouldn't I be infringing on his free will if I gave him a pint or two? [/quote] I'm not sure what the point is that you're trying to make. It almost seems like you're saying that Hitchens is beyond our help, which obviously we don't believe. What Mr. Hitchens needs is the grace and faith to accept the Church. How can he get that grace and faith? Ultimately it's going to be through God. We're still called to pray though. I don't think praying can be a negative under any circumstances. Ask this: will praying do Mr. Hitchens any harm? Any at all? On the other hand it may do him a lot of good...... and it certainly will do good to the one who prays. You've brought up the truth that the ends cannot justify the means, but that only applies when something evil is done to bring about a good end, and prayer cannot be evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='02 July 2010 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1278103405' post='2137051'] I'm not sure what the point is that you're trying to make. It almost seems like you're saying that Hitchens is beyond our help, which obviously we don't believe. What Mr. Hitchens needs is the grace and faith to accept the Church. How can he get that grace and faith? Ultimately it's going to be through God. We're still called to pray though. I don't think praying can be a negative under any circumstances. Ask this: will praying do Mr. Hitchens any harm? Any at all? On the other hand it may do him a lot of good...... and it certainly will do good to the one who prays. You've brought up the truth that the ends cannot justify the means, but that only applies when something evil is done to bring about a good end, and prayer cannot be evil. [/quote] Well I don't think a blood transfusion to my cousin would be considered evil. And I'm certainly not saying Hitchens (or anyone) is beyond help or redemption. But this goes to the point I was making earlier. Many atheists are atheist because they require proof. People like Hitchens are Antitheists. He does not require proof. He hates the idea of God and if it were proven to be true, he has stated he would continue to hate God. God gives him that right through free will. We are obligated to love God but he relinquishes that with the gift of free will. This isn't a "screw you" tactic. I'm honestly trying to respect his wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1278092778' post='2136958'] Well there is a little matter of free will to contend with. I pray for non believers all the time and I do it in a general sense with my rosary. But if someone (and this is rare) tells me "Please do not pray for me" I don't feel that I have the right to violate that person's free will. God gave them that. I struggle with the idea that my praying for someone who has asked me not to might infringe on their free will. I figure if God takes free will so seriously that I shouldn't treat it lightly. [/quote] I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='aalpha1989' date='02 July 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1278102723' post='2137042'] That is not the next logical step... in fact it is a completely different topic. Unconverted men on earth are completely different from damned souls in Hell. Men on earth still have a chance; we are required to pray for the salvation of men because we are Christian. "Oh, my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell. [b]Bring all men into Heaven, [i]especially those in most need of thy mercy.[/i][/b]" The purpose of the Church is to effect the salvation of man. The most important thing She can do toward that end is to pray. The Devil would love for us not to pray for men who ask us not to. [/quote] I agree and I do pray for the conversion of souls. I would argue that the devil is incapable of loving anything. But I get your point on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='02 July 2010 - 04:59 PM' timestamp='1278104389' post='2137059'] I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust. [/quote] I love Scripture. I detest the battle of Scripture passages.... If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or towneth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 2, 2010 Author Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 02:03 PM' timestamp='1278104639' post='2137061'] I love Scripture. I detest the battle of Scripture passages.... [/quote] you've been here before, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Lil Red' date='02 July 2010 - 05:10 PM' timestamp='1278105034' post='2137066'] you've been here before, right? [/quote] LOL yeah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 (edited) jai[i][/i]me, I'm going to pray for you to pray for people who have asked you to not pray for them. Edited July 2, 2010 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Winchester' date='02 July 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1278105965' post='2137070'] hot stuff, I'm going to pray for you to pray for people who have asked you to not pray for them. [/quote] that might be the most awesomest thing ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 (edited) [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1278102048' post='2137036'] No that's Christ actively trying to get the sinner to turn around and come home. I actually like your interpretation of the parables. I think it goes to the power of prayer. But the protagonist in these are Jesus. He is the shepherd looking for lost sheep. He is the one cleaning and working to bring the one lost coin back.[/quote] Yes, Christ is the only one who can save sinners, but that does not mean we can't implore His saving power for others, whether they want it or not. That's what prayer's all about. Praying for the conversion unrepentant sinners has always been the practice of the Church. In the Fatima Prayer, we pray, " . . . [b]Lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy.[/b]" There's no clause in there excepting those who don't want it. [quote]this is just one perspective Nihil. it can be a slippery slope to justify what we can do for others when they ask us not to. (Especially when we think we can justify it by saying "well they will be happy later")[/quote] Should we refuse to save the lives of others if they say they don't want it? That would be the logical conclusion of your line of thought. What others ask us to do should not be the final be-all and end-all of what we do for others when greater issues are at stake. The "slippery slope" line here is indeed a fallacy. What bad could possibly come out of praying for the good of others? If there's one thing we can't possibly go wrong in doing, it's earnest prayer for the salvation and good of others. Again, what evil will come out of prayer to God for others?? And prayers for Christopher Hitchens, whether he wants them or not. Edited July 2, 2010 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='Socrates' date='02 July 2010 - 05:32 PM' timestamp='1278106343' post='2137074'] Yes, Christ is the only one who can save sinners, but that does not mean we can't implore His saving power for others, whether they want it or not. That's what prayer's all about. Praying for the conversion unrepentant sinners has always been the practice of the Church. In the Fatima Prayer, we pray, " . . . [b]Lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy.[/b]" There's no clause in there excepting those who don't want it. Should we refuse to save the lives of others if they say they don't want it? That would be the logical conclusion of your line of thought. What others ask us to do should not be the final be-all and end-all of what we do for others when greater issues are at stake. The "slippery slope" line here is indeed a fallacy. What bad could possibly come out of praying for the good of others? If there's one thing we can't possibly go wrong in doing, it's earnest prayer for the salvation and good of others. Again, what evil will come out of prayer to God for others?? And prayers for Christopher Hitchens, whether he wants them or not. [/quote] And what evil is done by respecting the wish of someone who requests not to pray for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted July 2, 2010 Share Posted July 2, 2010 [quote name='hot stuff' date='02 July 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1278106600' post='2137076'] And what evil is done by respecting the wish of someone who requests not to pray for them? [/quote] This is the evil that could be done: One could fail to follow our Lord's command to pray for our enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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