Striving For Charity

[Hassan]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='18 July 2010 - 12:58 AM' timestamp='1279429088' post='2144271']
thanks!!
[/quote]


You're quite welcome.

[Jesus_lol]

I will try to be nicer.

[Hassan]

Ok, fine.

I think this thread misses the point. I think that overt personal attacks are merely symptomatic of a deeper problem. Subtle, passive aggressive snarkiness. For example, my Quran quote. I wanted to say what I am about to say now, but expressed it through the Qur'an to avoid crossing any line.

hot stuff. A week ago you said I was not a man, that I was a liar, to insignificant to even merit your disdain, and that I had no integrity. For my part, I called you arrogant, described some of your activities cowardly, generally mocked you quite a bit, and called you passive aggressive (I'm sure I have left many things out). These overt personal attacks were preceded by a good deal of snarky and petty bickering. Often coated in ambiguity so that a barb was never clearly and undeniably a barb. Honestly, I think this exacerbates any problems tenfold because when people become snarky and subtle to evade crossing the line it makes it difficult or impossible to differentiate between an innocuous statement or a barb. For example, when you (hot stuff) stated that DominicanSoul had 'good timing' in bumping this thread they day that many of us were returning from our suspension. Was this an innocent comment about the need of us all the be reminded to be charitable or were you flaunting that you avoided any apparent repercussions for your personal attacks, while many of us who do not have long and friendly relations with the mods were sent on vacation? I don't know and there is no way to ever know. And please do not think I am singling you out. I engage is subtle barbs all the time. This ambiguity has a cancerous effect on forum charity.

If this thread is a serious attempt at improving charity then I will do my best. To start off with I will apologize to hot stuff. I mocked you quite a bit here on phatmass and, particularly on the night that the real flamewar was going, said quite a few things on tinychat which I would have been banned for had I said them here. At the moment, I don't like you. This isn't fated to always be the case. There was a time when I really did not care for HisChildForever, KnightofChrist, and Apo. That has since changed and I have gained a genuine respect, and fondness, for all of them. I'm sure my dislike for you can change as well. I am sorry for mocking and belittling you and every other uncharitable action I have engaged in. I will genuinely try to be more charitable towards you (and everyone), if you are willing to also make an effort. You may have already been trying for that (For example, I noticed you haven't done the Hass thing today) but it is honestly hard to tell at times. I'm sorry this is public, I do not have access to private messaging. If you wish, I will edit it away.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Hassan' date='18 July 2010 - 12:44 AM' timestamp='1279431845' post='2144294']
Ok, fine.

I think this thread misses the point. I think that overt personal attacks are merely symptomatic of a deeper problem. Subtle, passive aggressive snarkiness. For example, my Quran quote. I wanted to say what I am about to say now, but expressed it through the Qur'an to avoid crossing any line.

hot stuff. A week ago you said I was not a man, that I was a liar, to insignificant to even merit your disdain, and that I had no integrity. For my part, I called you arrogant, described some of your activities cowardly, generally mocked you quite a bit, and called you passive aggressive (I'm sure I have left many things out). These overt personal attacks were preceded by a good deal of snarky and petty bickering. Often coated in ambiguity so that a barb was never clearly and undeniably a barb. Honestly, I think this exacerbates any problems tenfold because when people become snarky and subtle to evade crossing the line it makes it difficult or impossible to differentiate between an innocuous statement or a barb. For example, when you (hot stuff) stated that DominicanSoul had 'good timing' in bumping this thread they day that many of us were returning from our suspension. Was this an innocent comment about the need of us all the be reminded to be charitable or were you flaunting that you avoided any apparent repercussions for your personal attacks, while many of us who do not have long and friendly relations with the mods were sent on vacation? I don't know and there is no way to ever know. And please do not think I am singling you out. I engage is subtle barbs all the time. This ambiguity has a cancerous effect on forum charity.

If this thread is a serious attempt at improving charity then I will do my best. To start off with I will apologize to hot stuff. I mocked you quite a bit here on phatmass and, particularly on the night that the real flamewar was going, said quite a few things on tinychat which I would have been banned for had I said them here. At the moment, I don't like you. This isn't fated to always be the case. There was a time when I really did not care for HisChildForever, KnightofChrist, and Apo. That has since changed and I have gained a genuine respect, and fondness, for all of them. I'm sure my dislike for you can change as well. I am sorry for mocking and belittling you and every other uncharitable action I have engaged in. I will genuinely try to be more charitable towards you (and everyone), if you are willing to also make an effort. You may have already been trying for that (For example, I noticed you haven't done the Hass thing today) but it is honestly hard to tell at times. I'm sorry this is public, I do not have access to private messaging. If you wish, I will edit it away.
[/quote]
This kind of stuff is why (after a rather long time) I've grown to genuinely have a lot of respect for you.

[homeschoolmom]

[font="Comic Sans MS"][i][size="4"][color="#8B0000"]Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. --Romans 12:21[/color][/size][/i][/font]

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Hassan' date='17 July 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1279431845' post='2144294']
I will genuinely try to be more charitable towards you (and everyone), [b]if you are willing to also make an effort[/b].
[/quote]
Hassan, I commend you for an overall honest and thoughtful post. I think this sort of honesty, humility, and openness is a necessary step in moving toward a better overall attitude on the board.

I know you didn't direct this to me, but I'd like to briefly comment on this one thing you said, the bolded section.

It is my opinion (and I am sure if I researched I could find things to back it up) that there is more virtue in being charitable to an enemy than in being charitable to a friend. It is easy to love someone who loves you, but much harder to genuinely love and forgive someone who meets your honest charitable efforts with harshness. But that is exactly what we, as Catholics, are called to do. I know you're not Catholic, Hassan, but I would ask you to consider that as well, that there is great benefit to us all in being charitable even in the face of highly uncharitable behavior.

This is a struggle for me. My first instinct when I see rude, thoughtless behavior, or when I see unfairness, is to respond with an equal or greater amount of viciousness. To respond otherwise, with grace instead of anger, is very difficult for me. I don't do it perfectly or even well, here or in real life, and I doubt that any of us on this board do. However, if we're going to make a real effort to be more charitable, it has to mean that we are charitable in the face of subtle barbs and rude attacks, and that we respond with kindness and love to hatred and spite. That is where the virtuous exercise of charity lies.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='18 July 2010 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1279433045' post='2144300']
This kind of stuff is why (after a rather long time) I've grown to genuinely have a lot of respect for you.
[/quote]

yes

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Hassan' date='18 July 2010 - 02:44 AM' timestamp='1279431845' post='2144294']
I think this thread misses the point. I think that overt personal attacks are merely symptomatic of a deeper problem. Subtle, passive aggressive snarkiness.

For example, when you (hot stuff) stated that DominicanSoul had 'good timing' in bumping this thread they day that many of us were returning from our suspension. Was this an innocent comment about the need of us all the be reminded to be charitable or were you flaunting that you avoided any apparent repercussions for your personal attacks, while many of us who do not have long and friendly relations with the mods were sent on vacation?[/quote]


#1) this thread was meant to address all points of stupid behavior that has been displayed as of late, including your (general you, not specific) subtle, passive aggressive snarkiness. I don't find it nearly as subtle nor as passive as some people might think they are being.

#2) Don't assume. It makes you look silly.

[Hassan]

blah

Edited July 18, 2010 by Hassan

[IcePrincessKRS]

That hot stuff "avoided any apparent repercussions."

[Jaime]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='18 July 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1279479209' post='2144434']
That hot stuff "avoided any apparent repercussions."
[/quote]

I got punched in the throat

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='18 July 2010 - 03:01 PM' timestamp='1279479671' post='2144436']
I got punched in the throat
[/quote]

wow. who did the honors? i'm sure it wasn't mikolbe, 'cos i heard he punches like a girl...

[Hassan]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='18 July 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1279479209' post='2144434']
That hot stuff "avoided any apparent repercussions."
[/quote]


That's why I said 'apparent'. I was speaking from the general perspective of those people who were sent on vacation for a week. Many people were put off when they heard that hot stuff posted in this thread a mere few days after the fact when so many of us were still suspended. To some of those people it seemed smug. I did not say that that perspective is accurate. I am not saying that hot stuff was being anything other than sincere. I was simply using that as an example of how all the snarking (which I have certainly contributed to) creates a toxic atmosphere where it is difficult or impossible to differentiate between a genuine or innocuous statement and an attempted barb.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='18 July 2010 - 12:38 PM' timestamp='1279471131' post='2144372']
Hassan, I commend you for an overall honest and thoughtful post. I think this sort of honesty, humility, and openness is a necessary step in moving toward a better overall attitude on the board.

I know you didn't direct this to me, but I'd like to briefly comment on this one thing you said, the bolded section.

It is my opinion (and I am sure if I researched I could find things to back it up) that there is more virtue in being charitable to an enemy than in being charitable to a friend. It is easy to love someone who loves you, but much harder to genuinely love and forgive someone who meets your honest charitable efforts with harshness. But that is exactly what we, as Catholics, are called to do. I know you're not Catholic, Hassan, but I would ask you to consider that as well, that there is great benefit to us all in being charitable even in the face of highly uncharitable behavior.

This is a struggle for me. My first instinct when I see rude, thoughtless behavior, or when I see unfairness, is to respond with an equal or greater amount of viciousness. To respond otherwise, with grace instead of anger, is very difficult for me. I don't do it perfectly or even well, here or in real life, and I doubt that any of us on this board do. However, if we're going to make a real effort to be more charitable, it has to mean that we are charitable in the face of subtle barbs and rude attacks, and that we respond with kindness and love to hatred and spite. That is where the virtuous exercise of charity lies.
[/quote]

Ok, good point.

[dominicansoul]

[quote]I do solemnly promise to do my best to act with charity and respect and to treat my brothers and sisters in Christ in a manner that would make Baby Jesus smile.[/quote]