Staten Island Former Convent Not Sold To Muslim Group

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Socrates' date='23 July 2010 - 01:45 PM' timestamp='1279907123' post='2146846']
The short answer, right there.

Not selling a building or land to people whose religious ideology you disagree with is not bigotry. I've known nice-enough Muslims, but I wouldn't sell a building to be used for purposes of propagating Islam, just as I wouldn't sell it to the Church of Scientology, Jack Chick ministries, or an atheistic organization.

Some years back, Christendom College was in the process of trying to buy some surrounding land, but the deal was blocked when the elderly owner (I believe it was his son who was going to sell it) refused to sell the land to Catholics. I would regard the owner as bigoted, but he's perfectly in his rights not to sell the land, just as Christendom would not be required to sell land to anti-Catholics.

To have government or courts decide what land must be sold to whom and what does and does not constitute "bigotry" in selling land would set a very dangerous precedent.
[/quote]


Your position is reasonable and fair. Those do not seem to be the motivations driving the protesters though. Recall the last statement when somebody said, essential, one down, no for the Mosque being built two blocks from ground zero. The drive seems to be towards stopping Mosques from being built, period.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='23 July 2010 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1279909676' post='2146900']
Thank you! It seems I get the American thing than most Americans . I agree. Governments shouldn't tell us what we can do with our property. Even with the straw-man fallacy of bringing up "no black man can come in my restaurant!". Honestly, Governments shouldn't be our consciences. The good should be decided and propagated by the populous. Besides, the government stepping in here would be a violation of one or two of your amendments (on the grounds of religious freedom and non-partisanship).
[/quote]

http://real-estate.lawyers.com/residential-real-estate/Discrimination-in-Real-Estate-Sales-and-Leasing.html

If only America got America as well as you get America.

[Slappo]

Would it be bigotry if we chose not to sell the land to Satanists who wanted to use the convent as their place to say black masses and desecrate hosts?

[Socrates]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='23 July 2010 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1279914981' post='2146974']
Your position is reasonable and fair. Those do not seem to be the motivations driving the protesters though. Recall the last statement when somebody said, essential, one down, no for the Mosque being built two blocks from ground zero. The drive seems to be towards stopping Mosques from being built, period.
[/quote]
If you read the original questions in the thread, you'd note they are: "Should the archdiocese have sold the convent to the Muslim group?" and "Is it bigotry to purposefully not sell property to a group based on their religious beliefs?"

There was nothing in there about the motivations of protesters nor the proposed ground-zero mosque. (I doubt you're really competent to judge their inner intentions, anyway, If I was in New York, I would probably protest this myself. Building a mosque on the site of where buildings were destroyed and many killed in the name of Islam is in extremely bad taste, to say the very least, imo. It's far cry from not wanting mosques built at Ground Zero to preventing any and all mosques from being built. They can build mosques all they want, just not at Ground Zero.)

In any case, the question was whether a Catholic church should sell a building to a Muslim group, and whether it was bigotry to not sell the building to Muslims. I say no to both. The board of trustees of the church made the decision not to sell to the Muslims, and you have yet to have proven that their decision was bigoted.

Not selling a building to an organization of a particular religious ideology is not in itself bigotry. I certainly don't think Catholics are under any obligation to sell church buildings to Muslim groups. I don't think the Catholic Church should give any support to Islam, a false religious ideology which has been a serious enemy of Christendom from its beginnings, even indirectly, as by selling buildings. Refusing to sell the building to Muslims is no more bigotry than refusing to sell the building to Jack Chick, the Church of Scientology, the Church of Satan, Planned Parenthood, or the Anglicans. (Take it easy, IgnatiusofLoyola, the Anglicans part was supposed to be funny.)

Refusing to sell land to those of a religious group whose objectives are contrary to one's own is not bigotry, but conviction.
To say otherwise is to indulge in pc. relativistic mush.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Slappo' date='23 July 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1279917389' post='2147040']
Would it be bigotry if we chose not to sell the land to Satanists who wanted to use the convent as their place to say black masses and desecrate hosts?
[/quote]
According to the extremely politically-correct and progressive-minded it would be.

There is no right or wrong, good or evil. All groups and points of view are equally valid, and must be given absolute equal respect.


Unless they are evil, reactionary bigoted Oppressors like the Catholic Church, of course . . .

[CatherineM]

The UCC church two doors down from where I live just closed after 98 years. With the present change in demographics of this neighborhood, it is a real possibility that it might be converted to a mosque. It will be interesting to see how the neighborhood will react, and frankly, how I will react, if that happens.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='23 July 2010 - 03:57 PM' timestamp='1279915075' post='2146978']
http://real-estate.lawyers.com/residential-real-estate/Discrimination-in-Real-Estate-Sales-and-Leasing.html

If only America got America as well as you get America.
[/quote]
I can't decide if I wanna go with "tl;dr" or, "ik,r?"

[ThePenciledOne]

I feel as if it this was motivated by bigotry, which for a group of Christians is a bit intolerable, (let's put aside the radical Islam), personally I don't care about Musliums, but I find this all a bit ridiculous. If the roles were reversed I am sure we would be outraged instead. Given its property and property is subject to the owner, but it sounds like it was going to go through until the people caught wind of it....Oh well.

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='23 July 2010 - 03:57 PM' timestamp='1279915075' post='2146978']
http://real-estate.lawyers.com/residential-real-estate/Discrimination-in-Real-Estate-Sales-and-Leasing.html

If only America got America as well as you get America.
[/quote]

I'm not one well versed in real estate law, so I glanced through your link and noticed:

[quote]Exemptions from the FHA

The FHA generally exempts from its coverage:
* Rentals and sales of dwellings or lodgings [b]owned or controlled by religious organizations[/b] or private clubs [/quote]

I'm assuming that means they have the legal leeway to not sell without repercussions?

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='CatholicCid' date='24 July 2010 - 12:55 AM' timestamp='1279947317' post='2147337']
I'm not one well versed in real estate law, so I glanced through your link and noticed:



I'm assuming that means they have the legal leeway to not sell without repercussions?
[/quote]

[Winchester]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='24 July 2010 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1279947086' post='2147334']
I feel as if it this was motivated by bigotry, which for a group of Christians is a bit intolerable, (let's put aside the radical Islam), personally I don't care about Musliums, but I find this all a bit ridiculous. If the roles were reversed I am sure we would be outraged instead. Given its property and property is subject to the owner, but it sounds like it was going to go through until the people caught wind of it....Oh well.
[/quote]
You don't think bigotry is part of Christianity?

Do you not hold strongly and obstinately to the Christian faith?

[bonkers]

Hi chinwester. tong lime no see.

[Winchester]

How long did it take you to decide which letter to flip?

[bonkers]

[quote name='Winchester' date='24 July 2010 - 09:02 AM' timestamp='1279980161' post='2147397']
How long did it take you to decide which letter to flip?
[/quote]

It was ponstaneous.

[Winchester]

[quote name='bonkers' date='24 July 2010 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1279980296' post='2147399']
It was ponstaneous.
[/quote]
That's a skill, then. Many would leave out a letter, or something.