Staten Island Former Convent Not Sold To Muslim Group

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='04 August 2010 - 02:40 PM' timestamp='1280889609' post='2151834']
Mark, this is [u]very[/u] dangerous theology. Islam is a false religion, it is not an "imperfect" religion.
[/quote]

And your references are? I'm honestly quite interested in this and would be grateful if you or someone could direct me to a Church document.
BTW Even though you have expressed a desire to not be referred to by your first name. I must say that I am not bothered by your use of 'Mark' provided it is because you consider me a brother in Christ and are not attempting to talk down to me.

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='04 August 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1280892417' post='2151858']
I reach.
[/quote]

Sir, your opinion and your references are valuable to me, but I do not understand what you mean. Would you be so kind as to elucidate.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='04 August 2010 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1280898221' post='2151915']
And your references are? I'm honestly quite interested in this and would be grateful if you or someone could direct me to a Church document.
BTW Even though you have expressed a desire to not be referred to by your first name. I must say that I am not bothered by your use of 'Mark' provided it is because you consider me a brother in Christ and are not attempting to talk down to me.
[/quote]

The name "Mark" is part of your screen name. My use of it is similar to when people call me "HCF." It is a shortened version of your screen name. That is why I used it. If you prefer me to use "Mark of the Cross" or even "Cross" in the future, let me know.

The Catholic Church is the ultimate Truth. Christian denominations do not have the fullness of Truth but partial Truth. Islam has no Truth. Therefore it is a false religion. References? I assume you know that the Church professes to hold the fullness of Truth. I also assume that you know what that Truth is. Since you know what that Truth is, you must know that Islam does not profess that Truth at all. Therefore it is false.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='03 August 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1280878649' post='2151711']
Excuse me Mr Socrates Sir, but I'm having a little difficulty understanding your logic. How is it that something evil done in the name of Islam is inexorably tied to the fundamental principles of Islam, even though it is claimed by the majority of Muslims that it is not congruent with Islamic teaching. But on the flip side something that is done in the name of Christianity is automatically distanced from it. I agree with the second part of the statement but I'm having trouble rationalising the first to it.[/quote]
How do you determine what the "fundamental principles of Islam" are? As Islam is a false, man-made religion, there's no way of determining for certain. A significant minority of Muslims [b]do[/b] see suicide bombings as being in accord with "true" Islam. Since there's no ultimate authority in Islam, there's no definitive answer one way or the other.

In Christianity, on the other hand, we do have the authority of the Church.

Historically, Islam was spread by warfare and violent conquest (often of Christians) from the very beginning, and the Koran itself commands Muslims to make war on "infidels" and force them into submission.

[quote]Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the last day, who prohibit not what God and His prophet have forbidden, and who refuse allegiance to the True Faith — until they pay the tribute readily after being brought low. The Jews say, "Fzra is the son of Allah," and the Christians say, "Christ is the son of Allah;" that is their saying with their mouth. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah Himself fights against them. How perverse they are!
[/quote] Surah IX, 5, 29-30

From the beginning, Muslims have fought Christians into submission, and forced those who refuse to convert to Islam to pay a punitive tribute tax.

Sorry, but a religion which opposes Christians, and demands they convert or live in submission, is contrary to to the Christian Faith.

[quote]Umm! The way I remember it, on an unrelated thread you didn't hold back on your criticisms of my Christian perspective. IE you started it!!! Having observed on many occasions some banter and barbing on PM I assumed this was done all in good fun. Sorry I didn't realise I wasn't allowed to criticise and make a little fun back.[/quote]
I make no claims to "tolerance" or "nonjudgmentalism," and will call out error wherever I see it.
Unlike the bleeding hearts, I'm bound by no standards of not being able to criticize other religions or opinions.


[quote]I have never denied that Islam contradicts the Catholic faith and is [u]therefore a religion that is imperfect[/u]. Such accusations are your own and are false. (excuse the pun) The word false to me seems harsh and describes something like devil worship. If we give Islam a false religion tag then we must also give all other Christian denominations a false religion tag. Consubstantiation is false in the Catholic religion therefore any denomination that teaches it is a false religion. However because we are 'soft mushy Christians' we acknowledge the truth taught by said denominations and classify them as not quite correct but still Christian. You will probably argue that Islam is further off than these religions but that is exactly my point, there are shades of grey. Things are not just black and white. [/quote]

False means simply "not true." As Islam denies key truths about Christ, His Divinity, and role as Savior, it is false.
Every lie contains elements of truth, of course. By your standards, even devil worship would be an "imperfect religion."

All non-Christian religions are false.
Islam was founded on the rejection of key doctrines of Christian Faith.


[quote]That's true!


Wikipedia quote

Without realising it, the Muslims have pretty much said the same thing. They have just described it differently. God's ability to [b]will[/b] something is accomplished by himself as the [b]holy Spirit[/b].


They find the idea of Jesus being treated in such an inhumane way abhorrent and cannot come to terms with it. They lack the understanding that God so loved the world that he was prepared to suffer as we do to demonstrate this.

Jesus condemns no one through ignorance.
[/quote]
No one is saved through ignorance and falsehood either. We should pray for the conversion of all Muslims to Christ.

[quote]How can he return if he wasn't resurrected? Oh you mean he didn't come back as his embodied self! They do believe that he rose bodily to heaven though. Ah well we have our differences I suppose.[/quote]
It's not a trivial difference. According to Islam, Christ never died to save us.
Islam explicitly denies Christ as God and Savior, and is therefore a false religion anyway you slice it.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Socrates

[Polaris]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='04 August 2010 - 01:01 AM' timestamp='1280901681' post='2151927']
The name "Mark" is part of your screen name. My use of it is similar to when people call me "HCF." It is a shortened version of your screen name. That is why I used it. If you prefer me to use "Mark of the Cross" or even "Cross" in the future, let me know.

The Catholic Church is the ultimate Truth. Christian denominations do not have the fullness of Truth but partial Truth. Islam has no Truth. Therefore it is a false religion. References? I assume you know that the Church professes to hold the fullness of Truth. I also assume that you know what that Truth is. Since you know what that Truth is, you must know that Islam does not profess that Truth at all. Therefore it is false.
[/quote]

the official teaching of the church on islam is that islam contains "some truth". the church also teaches that islam is one of the "three great monotheistic religions". but this "some truth" really doesn't legitimize islam in any way, since it's also church teaching that even satan knows the truth.

[quote]The Moslems, "professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who at the last day wiill judge mankind" ([i]Lumen Gentium[/i] 16).[/quote]

[quote] Moslems "prize the moral life, and give worship to God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting" ([i]Nostra Aetate[/i] 3). [/quote]

[quote] the Second Vatican Council urged that all "forget the past and strive sincerely for mutual understanding, and, on the behalf of all mankind, make common cause of safeguarding and fostering social justice, moral values, peace, and freedom" ([i]Nostra Aetate[/i] 3)[/quote]

there are some very important points to be made and [url="http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/007512.html"]this link[/url] is a good debate on the issue. for example "dan" distinguishes between the church saying "the moslems profess to hold" with someone saying "the moslems hold". these are indeed two different things. i think the church fathers have been very guarded in the words they choose when discussing islam. my feeling is that it's not the role of the church to teach us about islam and no catholic should look to the church for that. to learn about islam you need to go [i]to islam[/i]: the koran, sira, and hadith, as well as islamic history.

[Polaris]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 August 2010 - 09:40 PM' timestamp='1280889609' post='2151834']
Mark, this is [u]very[/u] dangerous theology. Islam is a false religion, it is not an "imperfect" religion. The same applies to Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism. They are all false religions. Islam rejects the divinity of Jesus Christ. Islam rejects the saving power of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Trinity. That is not "imperfect" it is false.
[/quote]


buddhism and hindusim are spiritual philosophies, and not religions at all. islam is also not truly a religion, but a socio-poilitical totalitarian ideology with religious aspects, more likened to a cult proper.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Polaris' date='04 August 2010 - 01:55 PM' timestamp='1280944552' post='2152076']
buddhism and hindusim are spiritual philosophies, and not religions at all. islam is also not truly a religion, but a socio-poilitical totalitarian ideology with religious aspects, more likened to a cult proper.
[/quote]


There is no analytically robust, general agreed upon what is and it not a religion. I don't know how you justify saying that Hinduism is not a religion, or exactly how a 'spiritual philosophy' differs from a 'religion' or how either are different from a 'cult'. You should be more careful with definitions. You should also avoid using terms that should be used in a more strictly analytically sense like 'cult' as a polemic, as you did with your Islam definition. Lots of atheists and people generally opposed to Catholicism use the term 'cult' to describe your Church. Since I presume that you would object to that classification, I recommend you be careful about throwing the term around to describe other people's religions.

Now, regarding your classification of Islam. Most religions are also socio-political ideologies. Christianity is an outlier here, to its credit. If Islam is a totalitarian ideology then so is Biblical Judaism. As I suspect that, again, you were really just trying to polemicize your system of classification, I doubt you would like to call the system of Moses a 'socio-political totalitarianism ideology with religious aspects, more likened to a cult proper'.

All this skirts around the merit of your decision to use the term totalitarianism. I would argue that genuine totalitarianism is a 20th century philosophy and really not applicable, except maybe in spirit, to any ideology preceding it. Both the fiqh of the ulemma and the Biblical law of Moses make rather absurd intrusions into the personal lives of the followers. However the limited reach of the state at these periods of human history make it somewhat absurd to call them 'totalitarian'. To name just one reason that I think the term is inappropriate to either system..

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Socrates' date='05 August 2010 - 05:28 AM' timestamp='1280942925' post='2152067']

I make no claims to "tolerance" or "nonjudgmentalism," and will call out error wherever I see it.

[/quote]
You apparently see yourself as having been endowed with some authority to pass judgement based on your [b]own[/b] interpretations. You quote some text in your favour but you also overlook text against your claims. 'Do not judge and be not judged' Scripture is very complex and I will leave it to the Church to be the ones to make the interpretations.

[quote][b]Unlike the bleeding hearts,[/b] I'm bound by no standards of not being able to criticize other religions or opinions.[/quote]

I'm a bit concerned about this statement it gives the impression of being in conflict with our doctrine. Yes I'm guilty, I'm a bleeding heart.

In any event I see no purpose in going around on this merry go round and I find some of the statements, true or not, disturbing. Referring to previously stated Vatican documents I maintain that whatever the Catholic Church says is also my view. Obviously they have a different interpretation than you.
[quote]"The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom." -Nostra Aetate #3[/quote]
I will maintain my present view until such times as I have read a document of the Catholic Church refuting this.
As regard to this thread people will or have made up their own minds and there is [u]nothing further that I could add[/u] which would sway anyone.

[Mark of the Cross]

I love the hairdo Hassan. It looks like a double headed ice-cream.