Ukrainian Catholic Catechetical Materials On The Liturgy

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Raphael' date='11 August 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1281503798' post='2155650']
The Roman Rite itself is something altogether separate from any specific celebration of it. If the pamphlets want to compare rites, they should compare Eastern Divine Liturgy with what is called for in the texts of the Roman Rite, not with abuses of the rite, no matter how common. For instance, gregorian chant has pride of place, but one of the pamphlets says that Easterners consider the voice most important while Romans have music from various instruments. That's not what the Rite says! The pamphlet makes other similar liturgical and theological errors.
[/quote]

Rapahel, the Novus Ordo isn't a platonic form.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 12:32 AM' timestamp='1281501148' post='2155640']
whoever the author of this pamplet is, he obviously has never worshipped with the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist... they neither have banners, sing with guitars at Mass, (although they have been known to have a mini orchestra during the Solemnities...) the architecture of their chapel DOES NOT convey "modernism." Their prayers are the simply beautiful psalms of the Liturgy of the Hours, and they chant in Gregorian, sing in polyphony, Their art is beautiful, they are beautiful, because they embrace what the Holy Spirit has given to the Church in these times... they neither have a superiority complex, nor do they look with disdain on the other rites of the Church... they are the epitome of the Roman Rite... in all it's glory

to look upon the western Church as if it's the bad black sheep of the family is pretty lamo, and it gets old time and again.. i've experienced the superiority complex from several eastern riters in my lifetime, so much so, i thought it was part of the tradition of the East to be so... but then, i am guilty of generalizations, just like the author of this pamphlet!

hey Micah, have you ever heard the phrase, "Eastern Rite, Roman wrong!" An Eastern Rite Dominican brother used to looove to use this line all the time at the Dominican house of studies where I visited with my Sisters back in the day... he seemed so bitter and angry... not very attractive at. all. sorry, but I didn't recognize Jesus in that attitude...and I never do, when someone rears their pride and superiority over others using God, the Church, and their beliefs...
[/quote]
Interesting... so you don't find the Dominicans who pride their own use/rite over the (new) Latin one to be more superior? And I question this "Eastern" Dominican. This guy sounds like an oxymoron.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Raphael' date='10 August 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1281500300' post='2155637']
Authentic unity, as you know, is a relationship of respect, not back-stabbing. Shaking hands and saying, "we're equal," while making fun of your friend behind his back is misinformed at best and divisive at worst. This is the rough equivalent of two politicians shaking hands before a debate that one candidate has rigged with false information and unflattering advertisements of his opponent on the john. It's dirty pool.
[/quote]
Perhaps you should contact the Ukrainian Catholic priest who wrote the pamphlet before accusing him of "backstabbing."

Micah, be honest, you take offense at many of my posts simply because I stand up for the distinct theological traditions and doctrines of the East.

Do I, for example, believe in the Scholastic teachings on grace?

No, I do not.

That said, do I take offense if you accept those Scholastic formulations?

No, if you want to accept them it is no skin off my nose.

But that is not good enough for you, because - like a good chauvinist - you want me to confess the Latin way of doing tings, and I will never do that. The Latin way is not for me, and has not been of any real interest to me for several years now. That you are at home in the modern Roman Church is fine with me, but I prefer the ancient faith of the Eastern Fathers, which is no doubt why I have found my spiritual home in the Byzantine Church.

It is the only way for me.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Something to consider. Why is it that very few Eastern Christians (Catholic or Orthodox) post here at Phatmass for very long? Perhaps it is the inhospitable climate of this forum that makes them leave.

I have remained, even though it is often quite evident to me that Eastern Christians are second class citizens here, because I think many of the Roman Catholics at this forum need to know that their way of living and expressing the faith is not the only way.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Raphael' date='10 August 2010 - 10:26 PM' timestamp='1281500788' post='2155639']
That is a valid opinion, but anyone still has to admit that the characterization of e Roman Rite in the pamphlet is a gross overgenerization. Just because it is poorly done in specific instances doesn't make the rite itself poor.
[/quote]
It is just a pamphlet, and not a dissertation.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Hilde]

[organwerke]

.

Edited August 11, 2010 by organwerke

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' date='11 August 2010 - 02:59 AM' timestamp='1281509959' post='2155673']
Interesting... so you don't find the Dominicans who pride their own use/rite over the (new) Latin one to be more superior? And I question this "Eastern" Dominican. This guy sounds like an oxymoron.
[/quote]

Why would you question an Eastern Rite Dominican? Or do you just not believe that he exists because I spoke about him?

I've never experienced any Dominicans who use their own rite and act superior about it. But that's been my experience, can't say much for yours...

I only spoke of my experience, to let Micah know, he's not the only one to feel like he does about the pamphlet...

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 August 2010 - 03:08 AM' timestamp='1281510504' post='2155675']
Something to consider. Why is it that very few Eastern Christians (Catholic or Orthodox) post here at Phatmass for very long? Perhaps it is the inhospitable climate of this forum that makes them leave.

I have remained, even though it is often quite evident to me that Eastern Christians are second class citizens here, because I think many of the Roman Catholics at this forum need to know that their way of living and expressing the faith is not the only way.
[/quote]

We appreciate you showing us the differences, but not the superiority complex you seem to have about the Eastern Rite. If Eastern Christians find phatmass so inhospitable, it may be, because they too possessed a superiority complex and expressed it so in their comments. You guys could try the patience of saints...so, you gotta understand you're not gonna find much tolerance for that superiority complex in a phorum filled with sinners...

[Bennn]

It is catechetical material for Ukraïnian Catholics. So it does not seem to me that it was created as an attack against the Roman Rite, rather that the creator of that pamphlet seriously views our Rite this way. Even if this pamphlet does not faithfully represent the modern form of the Rite, the fact that outsiders associate (even without ill intentions) our Rite with the obvious displays of modernism seen on that pamphlet, should ring an alarming bell to us.

It cannot be denied that the modern form of the Rite has opened the doors to profane influences.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 09:56 AM' timestamp='1281531383' post='2155711']
We appreciate you showing us the differences, but not the superiority complex you seem to have about the Eastern Rite. If Eastern Christians find phatmass so inhospitable, it may be, because they too possessed a superiority complex and expressed it so in their comments. You guys could try the patience of saints...so, you gotta understand you're not gonna find much tolerance for that superiority complex in a phorum filled with sinners...
[/quote]

+1. It is one thing to take pride in your culture, and I have always appreciated the beautiful pictures of the Eastern liturgies and the fine explanations, but have always been bothered by the need to tell us how much better Eastern Catholics are than Latin Catholics. While Micah has posted some reactionary responses, putting words in Micah's mouth (which I know are not true) doesn't help either.

I also found the pamphlets offensive. It has an obvious bias towards Eastern divine worship, highlighting the best parts of it, while highlighting the worst practices and abuses in the Roman rite, which is still reforming itself, in practice, after the Second Vatican Council. We are on the cusp of a new Missal, approved, and to be used starting Advent 2011. Bishops are learning how to approach this council and what to take from it. Yes, we've had terrible church architecture, horrible music, the misuse of the laity at Mass, and abuses in the rite. Many in the Church have denied the Real Presence of Christ and the uniqueness of the Church as a means of salvation. It sounds like the typical aftermath of an ecumenical council to me. In the end though the Latin Rite, and the Church as a whole will be stronger for it.

The doctrinal portion is also far off the mark, and I would say was written by a fundamentalist baptist intending to convert Catholics if I didn't know better.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Bennn' date='11 August 2010 - 10:14 AM' timestamp='1281536046' post='2155726']
It cannot be denied that the modern form of the Rite has opened the doors to profane influences.
[/quote]

It cannot be denied that the extraordinary form of the Rite is much more beautiful in the opinion of millions of Catholics. But at the same time, you have your "profane influences" stuck to the traditional form as well (i.e. the schismatic groups that through their own prideful stubborness absolutely refuse the Pope's authority so much so that they claim there hasn't been a real Pope since the early 20th century...)

it seems that the devil will find any way, manner, or form to profane what is beautiful in our Church. No rite is completely immune to this... the devil always finds a way through people who are willing to work against the Church to satisfy their own selfish, prideful vices...

[Bennn]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 05:02 PM' timestamp='1281538957' post='2155754']
It cannot be denied that the extraordinary form of the Rite is much more beautiful in the opinion of millions of Catholics. But at the same time, you have your "profane influences" stuck to the traditional form as well (i.e. the schismatic groups that through their own prideful stubborness absolutely refuse the Pope's authority so much so that they claim there hasn't been a real Pope since the early 20th century...)

it seems that the devil will find any way, manner, or form to profane what is beautiful in our Church. No rite is completely immune to this... the devil always finds a way through people who are willing to work against the Church to satisfy their own selfish, prideful vices...
[/quote]


The ancient form of the Rite existed way before those schismatics used it for their unholy purposes, though. I don't find this so with the modern form of the Rite. It moved the people of God into an explosion of liturgical abuse. The modern form had been created by a committee, which gave the impression to the people that Liturgy can be created by experts. The logical result of this was that parishes started inventing each their own liturgies to satisfy their own tastes. The liturgical abuse we have beheld did not pop up out of no where, but it was moved into action by those who disrupted the organic growth of the Liturgy by replacing it with a 'mechanic' creation by human hands.

The Rite used to be uniform, a theological monument which pierced every heresy that assailed the Church. Now, it seems as if there has been a second babylonic speech disorder.

I am well aware that every Rite can be abused by those who have ill intentions, but I believe the problem to be deeper than that. Are the Cardinals at the Vatican who share these views schismatic? I can assure you that they are not.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Bennn

[Nihil Obstat]

...and here I was thinking that this thread was just going to be an article about some stuffy old Ukrainian catechist who wrote a good book.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Bennn' date='11 August 2010 - 11:14 AM' timestamp='1281539664' post='2155767']
The ancient form of the Rite existed way before those schismatics used it for their unholy purposes, though. I don't find this so with the modern form of the Rite. It moved the people of God into an explosion of liturgical abuse. The modern form had been created by a committee, which gave the impression to the people that Liturgy can be created by experts. The logical result of this was that parishes started inventing each their own liturgies to satisfy their own tastes. The liturgical abuse we have beheld did not pop up out of no where, but it was moved into action by those who disrupted the organic growth of the Liturgy by replacing it with a 'mechanic' creation by human hands.

The Rite used to be uniform, a theological monument which pierced every heresy that assailed the Church. Now, it seems as if there has been a second babylonic speech disorder.

I am well aware that every Rite can be abused by those who have ill intentions, but I believe the problem to be deeper than that. Are the Cardinals at the Vatican who share these views schismatic? I can assure you that they are not.
[/quote]

people who enjoy the extraordinary form over the "modern" form are not schimastics. but people who go so far as to break away from the authority of the Pope, in order to DEMAND that their views and interpretations of Church tradition be met, are stubborn, prideful schismatics. Im not sure I can go so far as to say that it is awful that we now have a "modern" form of the Rite, all I can say is it is awful how man has taken the Rite and twisted it in order to satisfy it to his own liking... YET, 40 years after Vatican II, there are beautiful examples of obedience where the "modern" Rite has been practiced in the manner it was created to be practiced (the DSMME are a great example...) Our Church is in need of much healing, but superiority complexes, prideful attachments to our own interpretations of Church tradition do nothing but damage Her even further....