Ukrainian Catholic Catechetical Materials On The Liturgy

[organwerke]

I would agree with Slappo, but, except for the fact that I don't think the description of the modern Roman Rite is always accurate, I found the pamplet interesting and nice, especially when it says that:

BOTH TRADITIONS ARE GOOD AND BOTH ARE CATHOLICS!

and

EASTERN AND WESTERN CATHOLICS CAN SHOW RESPECT FOR ONE ANOTHER LEARNING MORE ABOUT EACH OTHER.
The faith is the same but we express it in different ways.

[zunshynn]

Wow... really... interesting responses here.Since I heard I was brought up here, I'm going to give my take on this thing.

This is catechetical material. For Ukrainian children. Children. Who are not theologians. OBVIOUSLY the way the Roman Rite is portrayed here is sadly, quite off. Children have generally have an understanding that what you see is what you get. But I think it is obviously not malicious.

You can't expect a catechist from an Eastern Church to give them an in-depth theological treatise about the theological and liturgical history of the Roman Rite. Roman Catholics hardly even do that for their own children! These children are obviously going to have friends who are Roman Catholic, the majority of whom are going to be familiar with the liturgies celebrated very much like that portrayed in the pamphlet. The whole purose of this material is to explain the differences that they are going to SEE in most Roman Catholic parishes, which very often is not what they SHOULD see. Their friends are not likely to go to Masses like the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist have, or Our Lady of the Angels Monastery has, or that an FSSP parish has.

It's sad that the Latin rite of the Church is being perceived in this way, but it is CERTAINLY not other people's fault that they see it as such, and the burden of reeducating the world about the reality of what the patrimony of the Latin rite is does NOT fall upon catechists of other rites. Their responsibility is to educate their children primarily about their own rite, and they are trying to explain the differences that these children are likely to see. You'd be hard pressed to explain to a third grader, who isn't even Roman Catholic, why the the Roman Rite as their friends experience it is vastly different from what it is "supposed" to be.

Anyway, the author of this pamphlet is clearly not "backstabbing" or "attacking", based on the huge emphatic statements that both rites are equal, and complementary. If you are offended by it, its probably because you know there's something wrong with this and the fact that this is how the Roman Rite is perceived, even though the author clearly doesn't think that there is anything wrong with it. Drawing on what their children will have seen of the Roman Rite... this is what they had to work with, and they clearly made a genuine effort to show the two as complementary.

As far as Apotheoun having a superiority complex... way to go and completely judge someone without hardly any basis. Apotheoun is enthusiastic about his own rite. If you perceive that as superiority, it sounds like you're a little insecure in your heritage in the Latin Rite. Lots of people make comments around here about how Dominicans are the best, about how Carmelites are the best, so on and so forth. Is that a superiority complex? No, or at least I try to assume the best about peoples motives for that, that it is simply enthusiasm, and I see no reason why I can't take it pleasantly, and I see no reason why an Eastern Catholics enthusiasm cannot be received in the same way.

[Nihil Obstat]

Knew you'd be back.

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 August 2010 - 10:20 AM' timestamp='1281543656' post='2155795']
Knew you'd be back.
[/quote]

I'm not.

[HisChildForever]

I think we should stop accusing Apo of having a superiority complex, prideful attachments, and a harmful attitude towards the unity of Holy Mother Church - especially since those who make such accusations may be speaking out of pride themselves. The West can learn a lot from the East, namely when it comes to preserving the traditions of the liturgy (have acoustic guitars infiltrated the East?). The pamphlet Apo posted is the shocking reality of the abuse and or lack of tradition that occurs in many NO Masses. The way I see it, if the East can preserve their liturgy then the West can too. At this point we just have to work harder.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='11 August 2010 - 11:23 AM' timestamp='1281543809' post='2155796']
I'm not.
[/quote]
I WILL TOLERATE NO DISSENSION IN THE RANKS!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 06:56 AM' timestamp='1281531383' post='2155711']
We appreciate you showing us the differences, but not the superiority complex you seem to have about the Eastern Rite. If Eastern Christians find phatmass so inhospitable, it may be, because they too possessed a superiority complex and expressed it so in their comments. You guys could try the patience of saints...so, you gotta understand you're not gonna find much tolerance for that superiority complex in a phorum filled with sinners...
[/quote]
It is pretty evident that that is not - by and large - the case. In thread after thread I am told it is okay for me to believe the doctrines taught within the Byzantine tradition, but only if I simultaneously - in some strange theologically schizophrenic fashion - assent to the doctrinal expressions of the Western tradition. I simply will not do that.

Do I believe in the real distinction - without a separation - between essence and energy in God?

Yes, I do.

Do I simultaneously believe in the Scholastic notion of divine simplicity in which all of God's "attributes" are identical with His essence?

No, I do not.

Am I offended that Westerners do not accept the real distinction between essence and energy in God?

Nope.

Many people here at Phatmass are okay with Byzantine Catholics, but only as long as they remain subservient to the traditions of the Latin Church, which for many Roman Catholics are held to be normative for all Catholics.

So it really is not about pride or anything like that, but about Western ecclesial imperialism, i.e., it is about the Western attitude that says that all Catholics must be Latin if they are to be fully Catholic. It is of course that intolerant Western attitude that caused the Latinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches during the four hundred years from the 16th century to the end of the 20th century. Thankfully those days are over, at least they are over as far as Eastern Catholics are concerned. But alas that Latin chauvinism remains alive and well among many Roman Catholic Phatmassers.

P.S. - DS this post is not addressed to you in particular, I just used your comment in order to make mine. It is addressed to those posters who in thread after thread try to get me to say that I believe everything taught by the Roman Church, even if it is not a part of my [i]sui juris[/i] Church's tradition to do so.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Apotheoun

[dominicansoul]

as far as not being able to attend Masses with the DSMME, I was only using a highly publicized Roman Catholic group to display the glory of the "new" form of the Roman Rite. I find a great number of beautiful reverent "modern" rite Masses in my area... they aren't too scarce these days... Sometimes I think we dont' want to see the beauty in the "modern" Rite, but it's there...

when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter the Rite you belong to, but how much you actually love God and your neighbor...

superiority complexes and "we worship God better" attitudes might possibly get you into a hot seat in the after life...this is my concern and why I express my opinions... not in pride, but actually in charity... we shouldn't display a holier than thou attitude towards ANYBODY, not even to the muslims, the jews, and most especially to our own Catholic bretheren... like I've mentioned before, phatmass is to evangelize, not to turn people off to the wonder and beauty and splendor of our Church...

if this is truly catechetical material for youth in this eastern rite church, than I feel sad for those children... the person who created the pamphlet shouldn't have used a caustic generalization of the Roman Rite to teach the children about it... it could prove to only bring them up having superiority complexes themselves...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 11:07 AM' timestamp='1281546439' post='2155815']
if this is truly catechetical material for youth in this eastern rite church, than I feel sad for those children... the person who created the pamphlet shouldn't have used a caustic generalization of the Roman Rite to teach the children about it... it could prove to only bring them up having superiority complexes themselves...
[/quote]
Well, it is nice that Ukrainian Catholics try to teach their kids about the Latin Church. Not only are the vast majority of Roman Catholic children ignorant of Eastern Catholic traditions (in fact the vast majority at the schools where I have taught did not even know Eastern Catholics exist), but worse the vast majority of Roman Catholics adults - even some who are very well educated - know absolutely nothing about the Christian East.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Apotheoun

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 August 2010 - 12:59 PM' timestamp='1281545980' post='2155811']
It is pretty evident that that is not - by and large - the case. In thread after thread I am told it is okay for me to believe the doctrines taught within the Byzantine tradition, but only if I simultaneously - in some strange theologically schizophrenic fashion - assent to the doctrinal expressions of the Western tradition. I simply will not do that.

Do I believe in the real distinction - without a separation - between essence and energy in God?

Yes, I do.

Do I simultaneously believe in the Scholastic notion of divine simplicity in which all of God's "attributes" are identical with His essence?

No, I do not.

Am I offended that Westerners do not accept the real distinction between essence and energy in God?

Nope.

Many people here at Phatmass are okay with Byzantine Catholics, but only as long as they remain subservient to the traditions of the Latin Church, which for Roman Catholics are held to be normative for all Catholics.

So it really is not about pride or anything like that, but about Western ecclesial imperialism, i.e., it is about the Western attitude that says that all Catholics must be Latin if they are to be fully Catholic. It is of course that intolerant Western attitude that caused Latinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches during the four hundred years from the 16th century to the end of the 20th century. Thankfully those days are over, at least they are over as far as Eastern Catholics are concerned. But alas that Latin chauvinism remains alive and well among many Roman Catholic Phatmassers.

P.S. - DS this post is not addressed to you in particular, I just used your comment in order to make mine. It is addressed to those posters who in thread after thread try to get me to say that I believe everything taught by the Roman Church, even if it is not a part of my [i]sui juris[/i] Church's tradition to do so.
[/quote]

Apo, unbeknowest to others on this phorum, I KNOW YOU AND I ARE FRIENDS... you and I have spoken personally about our differences, and in the end, we remain FRIENDS. God bless!

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 August 2010 - 01:10 PM' timestamp='1281546641' post='2155816']
Well, it is nice that Ukrainian Catholics try to teach their kids about the Latin Church. Not only are the vast majority of Roman Catholic children ignorant of Eastern Catholic traditions (in fact the vast majority at the schools where I have taught did not even know Eastern Catholics exist), but worse the vast majority of Roman Catholics adults - even some who are very well educated - know absolutely nothing about the Christian East.
[/quote]
I for one, know nothing about the Eastern Rite, but I don't think I would want a Roman Rite Catholic who really had no real education of the Eastern Rite---except what he has witnessed about it---teaching me falsely about the Eastern Rite..

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 11:12 AM' timestamp='1281546731' post='2155818']
Apo, unbeknowest to others on this phorum, I KNOW YOU AND I ARE FRIENDS... you and I have spoken personally about our differences, and in the end, we remain FRIENDS. God bless!
[/quote]
Yes. We have been friends ever since a notorious "Chris West" thread of a few years ago, which is why I added my postscript in the post you quoted.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Bennn]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1281540692' post='2155781']
people who enjoy the extraordinary form over the "modern" form are not schimastics. but people who go so far as to break away from the authority of the Pope, in order to DEMAND that their views and interpretations of Church tradition be met, are stubborn, prideful schismatics. Im not sure I can go so far as to say that it is awful that we now have a "modern" form of the Rite, all I can say is it is awful how man has taken the Rite and twisted it in order to satisfy it to his own liking... YET, 40 years after Vatican II, there are beautiful examples of obedience where the "modern" Rite has been practiced in the manner it was created to be practiced (the DSMME are a great example...) Our Church is in need of much healing, but superiority complexes, prideful attachments to our own interpretations of Church tradition do nothing but damage Her even further....
[/quote]


Please calm down... [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img] I think you misinterpreted my post. With 'schismatics' I meant the same as you did; SSPX.

I do believe, however, that the places where the modern form is celebrated in a worthy manner are extremely scarce. I also do not think I am being prideful with my point of view. It took me lots of humbling myself in order to accept the fact that the Novus Ordo isn't as perfect as I have been taught.

Please remember that it is the traditionalists who are hated and treated as the scum of the earth, not the adherents of the innovations.

Was Cardinal Ottaviani a schismatic?

Edited August 11, 2010 by Bennn

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 12:12 PM' timestamp='1281546731' post='2155818']
Apo, unbeknowest to others on this phorum, I KNOW YOU AND I ARE FRIENDS... you and I have spoken personally about our differences, and in the end, we remain FRIENDS. God bless!
[/quote]
I feel the same way.

I am entirely uneducated in a formal way in regards to theology. Almost everything I know comes from PMers. I'm perfectly willing to accept Apotheoun's different perspective, just as much as I am willing to accept the more mainstream perspective of Latin members. I feel the East has a lot to offer us, and if the East is honest, they'd probably accept that the West has something to offer as well. We just need to see it.

[Sojourner]

As I noted early on in this thread, I found the pamphlet interesting precisely because of the way in which it portrays the Latin rite from another Catholic rite's perspective. Sure, it may not be accurate based on the liturgical ideal, but it is (perhaps painfully) accurate in several of its characterizations of the Latin Church. It's not hard to find a Protestant impression of the Catholic Church, but this sort of impression is rare, in my experience, and provides a valuable opportunity for us as Latin Catholics to examine our own tradition and perhaps figure out how better to relate to Catholics of other rites.

I think the fact that the Church has so many varied and beautiful rites should make us all thankful, because each of these rites, properly understood, enriches the whole Church. I know I have been inspired through my own studies of the Latin Church these last couple years to more fully appreciate our own history, and I feel like what I've learned just scratches the surface. And that's just one rite.

If you're offended by this pamphlet, perhaps consider using that emotion as an catalyst to grow and learn rather than dismiss it out of hand.