Ukrainian Catholic Catechetical Materials On The Liturgy

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Bennn' date='11 August 2010 - 01:16 PM' timestamp='1281547005' post='2155821']
Please calm down... [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif[/img] I think you misinterpreted my post. With 'schismatics' I meant the same as you did; SSPX.

I do believe, however, that the places where the modern form is celebrated in a worthy manner are extremely scarce. I also do not think I am being prideful with my point of view. It took me lots of humbling myself in order to accept the fact that the Novus Ordo isn't as perfect as I have been taught.

Please remember that it is the traditionalists who are hated and treated as the scum of the earth, not the adherents of the innovations.

Was Cardinal Ottaviani a schismatic?
[/quote]
I'm not really riled up..

I don't think it is as scarce as it used to be... at least in my diocese, Praise God! I have not personally called you out to be prideful, I was speaking more of those who willingly disobey our Pope just because they absolutely refuse to have anything to do with the "modern" form...

I don't think it is true that traditionalists are hated... I attend the Latin Mass and sometimes I have to call out my other Latin Mass friends when they become a little superior to those who attend the Novus Ordo Masses. Like I said, there is bad influences in every Rite, no one is immune to this temptation of pride...

I even have Latin Mass friends who may even SKIP Sunday Mass while traveling, because they feel the Mass in their area is too inferior for them to worship at! I'm like..."Who do you go to Mass for? Yourself or for God?" I don't think it's right to skip Mass just because it isn't in Latin, or in the Extraordinary Form.. I sadly find this attitude amongst a great number of my Latin Mass friends...

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='11 August 2010 - 01:19 PM' timestamp='1281547145' post='2155825']
If you're offended by this pamphlet, perhaps consider using that emotion as an catalyst to grow and learn rather than dismiss it out of hand.
[/quote]

It offends me because it is not TRUE... I'm a Dominican, and TRUTH is important to me... I've been upset with the abuses and the liberalism and the modernism that has infiltrated Holy Mother Church, because these evil influences don't belong in the Church... I have been fighting against these demons since I can remember, and it is the sole reason why I wanted and yearned for life as a Dominican Sister...to bring back the Splendor, the beauty and the reverence of God in the Church...and we can have that in the "modern" Roman Rite...

Catechesis, I believe, is the weapon that could rip these influences apart...but we have to teach others in TRUTH, not with our own opinions...

I am offended by the pamphlet, because...to display the Roman Rite in such a way as to make it look as if it is SUPPOSED to have these horrible modernistic influences is wrong...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 August 2010 - 11:16 AM' timestamp='1281547011' post='2155822']
I feel the same way.

I am entirely uneducated in a formal way in regards to theology. Almost everything I know comes from PMers. I'm perfectly willing to accept Apotheoun's different perspective, just as much as I am willing to accept the more mainstream perspective of Latin members. I feel the East has a lot to offer us, and if the East is honest, they'd probably accept that the West has something to offer as well. We just need to see it.
[/quote]
Sadly the history of interaction between Eastern Catholics and Roman Catholics has not been pleasant for Easterners. Most of the time it involved Latinization of our rites, our theology, and our spiritual traditions. For example, the Ruthenian Church in the United States experienced two schisms because of the interference of the Latin bishops in its internal life. The Latin bishops felt that the differences between Roman Catholics and Easterners would confuse their faithful, and so it was necessary for the Ruthenians to look and act more like Latins.

More than half of the descendants of the 19th century Ruthenian immigrants to America are today Eastern Orthodox because of the actions of the Latin Church's hierarchy.

The following statement issued by the American Roman Catholic Archbishops in 1893 is quite revealing: "The possible loss of a few souls of the Greek rite bears no proportion to the blessings resulting from uniformity of discipline." [Marion Casey, [u]Making the Irish American: History and Heritage of the Irish in the United States[/u], page 578]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 August 2010 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1281548430' post='2155854']
Sadly the history of interaction between Eastern Catholics and Roman Catholics has not been pleasant for Easterners. Most of the time it involved Latinization of our rites, our theology, and our spiritual traditions. For example, the Ruthenian Church in the United States experienced two schisms because of the interference of the Latin bishops in its internal life. The Latin bishops felt that the differences between Roman Catholics and Easterners would confuse their faithful, and so it was necessary for the Ruthenians to look and act more like Latins.

More than half of the descendants of the 19th century Ruthenian immigrants to America are today Eastern Orthodox because of the actions of the Latin Church's hierarchy.

The following statement issued by the American Roman Catholic Archbishops in 1893 is quite revealing: "The possible loss of a few souls of the Greek rite bears no proportion to the blessings resulting from uniformity of discipline." [Marion Casey, [u]Making the Irish American: History and Heritage of the Irish in the United States[/u], page 578]
[/quote]
It may be true that the history has often been problematic, but at the same time, I personally have no connection to the history of relations between the East and West. I feel that it's possible for me to ignore previous preconceptions and start from a basis of mutual respect and appreciation between East and West.
I'm not responsible for what those before me have said or done, know what I mean?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 11:35 AM' timestamp='1281548102' post='2155850']
I am offended by the pamphlet, because...to display the Roman Rite in such a way as to make it look as if it is SUPPOSED to have these horrible modernistic influences is wrong...
[/quote]
It may not be TRUE in the sense that the rite is not intended to look the way it does, but it is TRUE in the sense that it is put into practice that way in all too many churches.

Keeping in mind that this is a pamphlet for CHILDREN, how would you go about describing the Latin rite? Would you describe things as we wish they were practiced, or as these children are likely to encounter if they actually enter a Latin rite parish for worship? In my experience, they're more likely to encounter guitars and cheesy banners than not. So should the pamphlet instead have said, "Latin Churches are just not measuring up to their own standards. We are! Yay us!"

I think they tried to put as positive a spin on the situation as they could, in a simplistic educational tool used for children.

For us as Latin Catholics, it is helpful (and interesting) because it shows us the work that we still need to do. And it shows how our failings affect the rest of the Church outside our own rite.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 August 2010 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1281548570' post='2155856']
It may be true that the history has often been problematic, but at the same time, I personally have no connection to the history of relations between the East and West.
[/quote]
I never said that you did, but how would you feel if half of your family was no longer in the same Church as you, and that this situation was the end result of actions taken by the bishops of the Roman Catholic Church?

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 August 2010 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1281548570' post='2155856']I feel that it's possible for me to ignore previous preconceptions and start from a basis of mutual respect and appreciation between East and West.[/quote]
I understand that, but put yourself into the shoes of a Ruthenian Catholic. How would you feel then about the West?

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 August 2010 - 11:42 AM' timestamp='1281548570' post='2155856']
I'm not responsible for what those before me have said or done, know what I mean?[/quote]
Yes, I know what you mean, and I never said that you were personally responsible for the schisms in the Ruthenian Church, or that you personally caused the Latinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches in North America.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 August 2010 - 08:24 AM' timestamp='1281540290' post='2155775']
...and here I was thinking that this thread was just going to be an article about some stuffy old Ukrainian catechist who wrote a good book.
[/quote]
oh silly you! it's like you just joined phatmass or something!

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='11 August 2010 - 01:47 PM' timestamp='1281548855' post='2155859']
It may not be TRUE in the sense that the rite is not intended to look the way it does, but it is TRUE in the sense that it is put into practice that way in all too many churches.

Keeping in mind that this is a pamphlet for CHILDREN, how would you go about describing the Latin rite? Would you describe things as we wish they were practiced, or as these children are likely to encounter if they actually enter a Latin rite parish for worship? In my experience, they're more likely to encounter guitars and cheesy banners than not. So should the pamphlet instead have said, "Latin Churches are just not measuring up to their own standards. We are! Yay us!"

I think they tried to put as positive a spin on the situation as they could, in a simplistic educational tool used for children.

For us as Latin Catholics, it is helpful (and interesting) because it shows us the work that we still need to do. And it shows how our failings affect the rest of the Church outside our own rite.
[/quote]

I would teach them the TRUTH, especially because they are children...

When Scott Hahn became a Catholic, He too, was quite surprised at what was happening in the Church, but he was grateful to be taught the TRUTH, not what he was going to see...

Again, I am recognizing the "springtime of the Church" in my diocese, so there are many reverent Masses of the "modern" rite... I think it's because people have been taught the Truth of our Faith, and the Roman Rite, rather than what they have been observing for the last decades...

[Slappo]

Also notice that this pamphlet was created in 1999... a lot has changed in the common practices occuring in the Roman Rite Liturgy in the past 11 years.


A lot of good change has happened since 1999... closer following of the rubrics... a rise in young faithful priests... etc...

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Slappo' date='11 August 2010 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1281550603' post='2155874']
Also notice that this pamphlet was created in 1999... a lot has changed in the common practices occuring in the Roman Rite Liturgy in the past 11 years.


A lot of good change has happened since 1999... closer following of the rubrics... a rise in young faithful priests... etc...
[/quote]

[organwerke]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 August 2010 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1281543877' post='2155797']
The West can learn a lot from the East, namely when it comes to preserving the traditions of the liturgy (have acoustic guitars infiltrated the East?). The pamphlet Apo posted is the shocking reality of the abuse and or lack of tradition that occurs in many NO Masses. The way I see it, if the East can preserve their liturgy then the West can too. At this point we just have to work harder.
[/quote]

The East too has to learn from the West, as the pamphlet itself says: have you read it?
I will repeat what the Ukranian Church- not me- says: IS ONE TRADITION BETTER THAN THE OTHER? NO! BOTH TRADITIONS ARE GOOD AND BOTH ARE CATHOLICS!

and

EASTERN AND WESTERN CATHOLICS CAN SHOW RESPECT FOR ONE ANOTHER LEARNING MORE ABOUT EACH OTHER.
The faith is the same but we express it in different ways.

I don't see any accusation towards the Roman Rite: I see an improper perception, I also see an obvious and logic and just praise of the Eastern Rite, but an accusation to the Roman: no. Funny thing: I see accusations from the members of PM, not from the Ukranian Church.

[quote]I think we should stop accusing Apo of having a superiority complex, prideful attachments, and a harmful attitude towards the unity of Holy Mother Church - especially since those who make such accusations may be speaking out of pride themselves. [/quote]

This is ok. As far as myself I don't judge his character, I can't do that,moreover I recognize many of his qualities (such as some of his weak points)
I can only judge facts and the main fact regarding me is that he made a grave false accusation in the past against me and never ammitted the truth.
This is not a judgement towards his person, this is simply a fact.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 August 2010 - 12:51 PM' timestamp='1281549083' post='2155862']
I never said that you did, but how would you feel if half of your family was no longer in the same Church as you, and that this situation was the end result of actions taken by the bishops of the Roman Catholic Church?


I understand that, but put yourself into the shoes of a Ruthenian Catholic. How would you feel then about the West?


Yes, I know what you mean, and I never said that you were personally responsible for the schisms in the Ruthenian Church, or that you personally caused the Latinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches in North America.


[/quote]
Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you are trying to place responsibility for the situation on myself- I know you're not.





To but it basically, here's how I view the whole East/West paradigm:

I see it as having four logically possible situations.

[list=1]
[*]The Latin Church has nothing of value to learn from the East, but the East has something of value to learn from the West.
[*]The Eastern Churches have nothing to learn from the West, but the West has something of value to learn from the East.
[*]The Eastern and Western Churches have nothing of value to learn from each other.

OR

[*]Both the Eastern and Western Churches have something of value to learn from each other.
[/list]

It seems to me that 1 is the Latin chauvinism you often talk about, and which I agree is inappropriate, and 2 would be Eastern chauvinism that you've been accused of occasionally in the past. The third option would imply to me that, were it true, the East and West are so distinct as to not share the same Faith. I think we'd agree that this is not at all the case, so that leaves us with the fourth option.
So if I accept only the fourth option, that leaves me only to discover what it is I (and my Church) should learn from the East, while also trying to communicate to the East whatever I may have of value to them. It places us as equally valid expressions of Catholic Tradition in an environment of respect and admiration for the Truth inherent in each Church. We don't want to be the same, but we each want to offer the most perfect expression of our Faith as we can to our members, be they inclined to the East or to the West.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Nihil Obstat

[Sojourner]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 12:14 PM' timestamp='1281550485' post='2155873']
I would teach them the TRUTH, especially because they are children...

When Scott Hahn became a Catholic, He too, was quite surprised at what was happening in the Church, but he was grateful to be taught the TRUTH, not what he was going to see...

Again, I am recognizing the "springtime of the Church" in my diocese, so there are many reverent Masses of the "modern" rite... I think it's because people have been taught the Truth of our Faith, and the Roman Rite, rather than what they have been observing for the last decades...
[/quote]
Well, for one, this pamphlet does contain some degree of truth, although it is not TRUTH.

And, it is not intended to educate converts, but to educate Ukrainian Catholic children about how to relate to their Latin brothers.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for TRUTH but from a practical standpoint I am not sure that it would be useful in this specific context to point out the ways in which the Latin Church (or individual parishes) deviates (or deviated, depending on your geography) from its heritage.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='11 August 2010 - 02:49 PM' timestamp='1281552575' post='2155900']
Well, for one, this pamphlet does contain some degree of truth, although it is not TRUTH.

And, it is not intended to educate converts, but to educate Ukrainian Catholic children about how to relate to their Latin brothers.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for TRUTH but from a practical standpoint I am not sure that it would be useful in this specific context to point out the ways in which the Latin Church (or individual parishes) deviates (or deviated, depending on your geography) from its heritage.
[/quote]
...i guess I'm too idealistic..
...but that's how I've always been...

...it kinda works when I teach Catechism, though.. I mean, that I expect my students to grasp the reality of our Faith, rather than what they perceive it to be by the bad examples around them...

but I get what you are saying about the pamphlet... but it still offends me... it offends me and rather, embarrasses me..because as a Roman Catholic, I don't like us being perceived that way... I'm like, "NO, No, No! That's not the way its supposed to be!"

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 August 2010 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1281552041' post='2155890']
Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you are trying to place responsibility for the situation on myself- I know you're not.





To but it basically, here's how I view the whole East/West paradigm:

I see it as having four logically possible situations.

[list=1]
[*]The Latin Church has nothing of value to learn from the East, but the East has something of value to learn from the West.
[*]The Eastern Churches have nothing to learn from the West, but the West has something of value to learn from the East.
[*]The Eastern and Western Churches have nothing of value to learn from each other.

OR

[*]Both the Eastern and Western Churches have something of value to learn from each other.
[/list]

It seems to me that 1 is the Latin chauvinism you often talk about, and which I agree is inappropriate, and 2 would be Eastern chauvinism that you've been accused of occasionally in the past. The third option would imply to me that, were it true, the East and West are so distinct as to not share the same Faith. I think we'd agree that this is not at all the case, so that leaves us with the fourth option.
So if I accept only the fourth option, that leaves me only to discover what it is I (and my Church) should learn from the East, while also trying to communicate to the East whatever I may have of value to them. It places us as equally valid expressions of Catholic Tradition in an environment of respect and admiration for the Truth inherent in each Church. We don't want to be the same, but we each want to offer the most perfect expression of our Faith as we can to our members, be they inclined to the East or to the West.
[/quote]
I agree point four has value, but from my perspective a more important point is missing, i.e., that each side should be true to its own traditional doctrines.