Ukrainian Catholic Catechetical Materials On The Liturgy

[Sojourner]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 02:43 PM' timestamp='1281559380' post='2156070']


Now I really wonder what his motives are!
[/quote]
Well, I'd guess that, since this was published by an Eastern Catholic Institute affiliated with a Roman Pontifical University, it was designed to foster ecumenical understanding between the two rites.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Terra Firma

[Slappo]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1281559380' post='2156070']


Now I really wonder what his motives are!
[/quote]

..............

I'm sure he didn't spend his PhD studying the Latin Rite...

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='organwerke' date='11 August 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1281551556' post='2155885']
This is ok. As far as myself I don't judge his character, I can't do that,moreover I recognize many of his qualities (such as some of his weak points)
I can only judge facts and the main fact regarding me is that he made a grave false accusation in the past against me and never ammitted the truth.
This is not a judgement towards his person, this is simply a fact.
[/quote]

Looks more like libel.

[Apotheoun]

Based upon some of the posts in this thread I get the impression that some people think this pamphlet is a deeply thought out theological dissertation instead of being a three page document aimed at children.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='11 August 2010 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1281559589' post='2156079']
Well, I'd guess that, since this was published by an Eastern Catholic Institute affiliated with a Roman Pontifical University, it was designed to foster ecumenical understanding between the two rites.
[/quote]
no way!!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='11 August 2010 - 10:18 AM' timestamp='1281543523' post='2155794']
Wow... really... interesting responses here.Since I heard I was brought up here, I'm going to give my take on this thing.

This is catechetical material. For Ukrainian children. Children. Who are not theologians. OBVIOUSLY the way the Roman Rite is portrayed here is sadly, quite off. Children have generally have an understanding that what you see is what you get. But I think it is obviously not malicious.

You can't expect a catechist from an Eastern Church to give them an in-depth theological treatise about the theological and liturgical history of the Roman Rite. Roman Catholics hardly even do that for their own children! These children are obviously going to have friends who are Roman Catholic, the majority of whom are going to be familiar with the liturgies celebrated very much like that portrayed in the pamphlet. The whole purose of this material is to explain the differences that they are going to SEE in most Roman Catholic parishes, which very often is not what they SHOULD see. Their friends are not likely to go to Masses like the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist have, or Our Lady of the Angels Monastery has, or that an FSSP parish has.

It's sad that the Latin rite of the Church is being perceived in this way, but it is CERTAINLY not other people's fault that they see it as such, and the burden of reeducating the world about the reality of what the patrimony of the Latin rite is does NOT fall upon catechists of other rites. Their responsibility is to educate their children primarily about their own rite, and they are trying to explain the differences that these children are likely to see. You'd be hard pressed to explain to a third grader, who isn't even Roman Catholic, why the the Roman Rite as their friends experience it is vastly different from what it is "supposed" to be.

Anyway, the author of this pamphlet is clearly not "backstabbing" or "attacking", based on the huge emphatic statements that both rites are equal, and complementary. If you are offended by it, its probably because you know there's something wrong with this and the fact that this is how the Roman Rite is perceived, even though the author clearly doesn't think that there is anything wrong with it. Drawing on what their children will have seen of the Roman Rite... this is what they had to work with, and they clearly made a genuine effort to show the two as complementary.

As far as Apotheoun having a superiority complex... way to go and completely judge someone without hardly any basis. Apotheoun is enthusiastic about his own rite. If you perceive that as superiority, it sounds like you're a little insecure in your heritage in the Latin Rite. Lots of people make comments around here about how Dominicans are the best, about how Carmelites are the best, so on and so forth. Is that a superiority complex? No, or at least I try to assume the best about peoples motives for that, that it is simply enthusiasm, and I see no reason why I can't take it pleasantly, and I see no reason why an Eastern Catholics enthusiasm cannot be received in the same way.
[/quote]
Thank you.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 August 2010 - 04:56 PM' timestamp='1281560201' post='2156090']
Based upon some of the posts in this thread I get the impression that some people think this pamphlet is a deeply thought out theological dissertation instead of being a three page document aimed at children.
[/quote]
so you are saying that Eastern Rite children are denied deeply thought out theological catechesis?

In the Roman Rite, for example, we have the Baltimore Catechism... which is deeply thought out theological catechesis... and at the same time, it is aimed for children and progresses to teens to young adults...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 04:03 PM' timestamp='1281564214' post='2156127']
so you are saying that Eastern Rite children are denied deeply thought out theological catechesis?[/quote]
I am saying, and I say this as a teacher, that information in an educational program is presented to children at an age appropriate level. I do not teach things to a 7th grader in the same way that I teach things to a senior in high school.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 04:03 PM' timestamp='1281564214' post='2156127']
In the Roman Rite, for example, we have the Baltimore Catechism... which is deeply thought out theological catechesis... and at the same time, it is aimed for children and progresses to teens to young adults...
[/quote]
No offense intended, but I do not think of the Baltimore Catechism as "deeply thought out." To me it is a rather superficial treatment of the faith.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 August 2010 - 06:08 PM' timestamp='1281564490' post='2156132']
I am saying, and I say this as a teacher, that information in an educational program is presented to children at an age appropriate level. I do not teach things to a 7th grader in the same way that I teach things to a senior in high school.
[/quote]
but with every age level, much theological thought would go into the program, regardless of age, correct? This is what is done in the Roman Rite, (or what is supposed to be done...) I know that the Sisters (using them as an example again,) have a program for catechesis for every age level, where much theological thought is placed, regardless of the age group. Most especially the very young, because the Sisters believe children are not incapable of digesting the revealed Truths of God...

...and wouldn't there be much care that only truth was taught, and not opinion or prejudiced bias? I don't know what you teach, but if you were to teach Eastern Rite children about the Roman Rite, would you personally teach your students what you feel about the Roman Rite, or would you only present them with the Truths? I would hope that you would teach only truths, and allow the students to judge for themselves, which Rite better fits them...

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 August 2010 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1281564628' post='2156135']
No offense intended, but I do not think of the Baltimore Catechism as "deeply thought out." To me it is a rather superficial treatment of the faith.
[/quote]
it's the catechism i was given as a child, and it fed my desire to know more about my Faith and my God. I still use it as a reference along with the new Catechism of the Catholic Church. it gives a simple explanation of the Truths...and the pictures delight the little kids...

...plus, i don't see any bias against anyone in the baltimore catechism, only bias against sin and death...

...so I would strongly disagree with you.

[Slappo]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1281566255' post='2156143']
but with every age level, much theological thought would go into the program, regardless of age, correct? This is what is done in the Roman Rite, (or what is supposed to be done...) I know that the Sisters (using them as an example again,) have a program for catechesis for every age level, where much theological thought is placed, regardless of the age group. Most especially the very young, because the Sisters believe children are not incapable of digesting the revealed Truths of God...

...and wouldn't there be much care that only truth was taught, and not opinion or prejudiced bias? I don't know what you teach, but if you were to teach Eastern Rite children about the Roman Rite, would you personally teach your students what you feel about the Roman Rite, or would you only present them with the Truths? [b]I would hope that you would teach only truths, and allow the students to judge for themselves, which Rite better fits them...[/b]
[/quote]


I would hope that the children remain practicing the Rite that corresponds to their [i]sui iuris[/i] Church. The individual sui iuris churches should not be seeking to convert one another within Catholicism, nor should Catholics seek to be converting the Orthodox to a different Church.

If later in life the children become adults and determine that due to the circumstances of their life, the area they live in, etc... that it is prudent to change Church's that is one thing... but that is done in wisdom, age, and discernment. Especially considering that it requires the approval of the local ordinary...

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Slappo' date='11 August 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1281568397' post='2156162']
I would hope that the children remain practicing the Rite that corresponds to their [i]sui iuris[/i] Church. The individual sui iuris churches should not be seeking to convert one another within Catholicism, nor should Catholics seek to be converting the Orthodox to a different Church.

If later in life the children become adults and determine that due to the circumstances of their life, the area they live in, etc... that it is prudent to change Church's that is one thing... but that is done in wisdom, age, and discernment. Especially considering that it requires the approval of the local ordinary...
[/quote]


well, if I was a child in the Ukrainian Church, and I was handed these pamphlets, I would steer clear of the Roman Rite for sure!

[Sojourner]

Dominicansoul, I think your passion for the catechesis of Ukrainian Catholic children is commendable. I think that Apo provided us with this pamphlet as a window into the way our Catholic brothers and sisters in other rites view us, but it seems to really have awakened in you a drive to ensure high-quality catechesis for these children. I think that is a beautiful thing.

Since the number of Ukrainian Catholics is so small in comparison to Roman Catholics, you might consider that the passion you've displayed here could have a greater purpose. Perhaps you could be called to help them out by providing them with a new, more truthful text for their children's catechetics. [url="http://www.ustpaul.ca/Sheptytsky/info/contact.htm"]Here's the contact information[/url] for the Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky Institute of Eastern Christian Studies, which published the document. I'm sure they'd happily receive your suggestions for improving this pamphlet.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Terra Firma

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 August 2010 - 02:49 AM' timestamp='1281509371' post='2155671']
It is absurd if you are talking about the Roman liturgy celebrated according to the older missal, but in my more than 20 years as a Catholic it is not an inaccurate portrayal of the way that the modern (i.e., the 1969) Roman liturgy is celebrated.

I am sure that it would be quite easy to post videos of the modern liturgy celebrated in a manner that is reflected in the Ukrainian Church's catechetical document. Sad as it is to say, the presentation in the pamphlet is not far off base when compared to the liturgies I have attended here in the SF Bay Area since 1987.
[/quote]
Again, the Roman Rite per se is to be distinguished from the Roman Rite as abused. It is dishonest to say that the Roman Rite calls for [insert abuse of the rite here], when that very thing itself is in fact a violation of the rite. Period.