Ukrainian Catholic Catechetical Materials On The Liturgy

[Sojourner]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 12:59 PM' timestamp='1281553173' post='2155908']
...i guess I'm too idealistic..
...but that's how I've always been...

...it kinda works when I teach Catechism, though.. I mean, that I expect my students to grasp the reality of our Faith, rather than what they perceive it to be by the bad examples around them...

but I get what you are saying about the pamphlet... but it still offends me... it offends me and rather, embarrasses me..because as a Roman Catholic, I don't like us being perceived that way... I'm like, "NO, No, No! That's not the way its supposed to be!"
[/quote]
Well, I'd say you have a different purpose in teaching your Catechism class (i.e., educating children about their own tradition and beliefs) than this pamphlet is aiming to fulfill (i.e., encouraging civil dialogue between two different rites of the Catholic Church).

I think it should offend and embarrass you, and that's why seeing it is a good thing. It helps us to better (and more TRUTHFULLY) see and appreciate our own weaknesses. Only by addressing those weaknesses in our own practices can we enter into TRUE and beneficial relationships with other Catholics. We have to see ourselves as we are in order to truly grow. Getting angry at the person giving the honest evaluation doesn't help matters; instead, we should direct that emotion where it rightly belongs.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Terra Firma

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 August 2010 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1281554170' post='2155931']
I agree point four has value, but from my perspective a more important point is missing, i.e., that each side should be true to its own traditional doctrines.
[/quote]
That's not mutually exclusive though. At least not from my perspective.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='11 August 2010 - 03:17 PM' timestamp='1281554239' post='2155933']
Well, I'd say you have a different purpose in teaching your Catechism class (i.e., educating children about their own tradition and beliefs) than this pamphlet is aiming to fulfill (i.e., encouraging civil dialogue between two different rites of the Catholic Church).

I think it should offend and embarrass you, and that's why seeing it is a good thing. It helps us to better (and more TRUTHFULLY) see and appreciate our own weaknesses. Only by addressing those weaknesses in our own practices can we enter into TRUE and beneficial relationships with other Catholics. We have to see ourselves as we are in order to truly grow. Getting angry at the person giving the honest evaluation doesn't help matters; instead, we should direct that emotion where it rightly belongs.
[/quote]

i just wonder if this pamphlet is an "honest" evaluation, rather than what I perceive as a superiority complex? I don't see it the way you do, as an honest attempt to encourage dialogue... now a pamphlet that would show the truth rather than the abuses...that to me, would seem like an attempt to encourage those of the Eastern Church to be aware that the abuses are not what's supposed to be the norm...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 August 2010 - 01:18 PM' timestamp='1281554301' post='2155934']
That's not mutually exclusive though. At least not from my perspective.
[/quote]
As I said, point four has value, but the danger with it is that one could think that a synthesis between the Traditions should be the end result, and that is not what should happen.

Eastern Catholics must be true to their doctrinal, spiritual, and liturgical patrimony; while Roman Catholics must be true to their own Church's traditions.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1281554780' post='2155946']
i just wonder if this pamphlet is an "honest" evaluation, rather than what I perceive as a superiority complex? I don't see it the way you do, as an honest attempt to encourage dialogue... now a pamphlet that would show the truth rather than the abuses...that to me, would seem like an attempt to encourage those of the Eastern Church to be aware that the abuses are not what's supposed to be the norm...
[/quote]
I guess I choose to believe the best about the people who wrote this, rather than impute negative motives to it without strong evidence supporting that view. I believe that is the more charitable approach.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 August 2010 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1281554820' post='2155948']
As I said, point four has value, but the danger with it is that one could think that a synthesis between the Traditions should be the end result, and that is not what should happen.

Eastern Catholics must be true to their doctrinal, spiritual, and liturgical patrimony; while Roman Catholics must be true to their own Church's traditions.
[/quote]
I agree. Like I said, I don't think anybody with any awareness of our Churches would want a synthesis of the two. I think though, that there would be value in careful study of each others' patrimony with the goal being to identify how said patrimony could play an authentic role in a different environment.

[Lil Red]

if the person who wrote this pamphlet had never been to a wonderfully celebrated Novus Ordo, and had never heard of such a thing (like 75% of the Catholics nearby me), then it's no wonder it's written the way it is.

btw, i agree with TF in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=107399&view=findpost&p=2155949"]post #80[/url]

[sistersintigo]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='11 August 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1281555397' post='2155961']
btw, i agree with TF in [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=107399&view=findpost&p=2155949"]post #80[/url]
[/quote]

that makes three of us.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='11 August 2010 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1281554971' post='2155949']
I guess I choose to believe the best about the people who wrote this, rather than impute negative motives to it without strong evidence supporting that view. I believe that is the more charitable approach.
[/quote]
I will try to be as saintly as you are, and try to think that the ignorance of the Roman Rite displayed is purely innocent, and not a barb against us, even though I can't help but feel I might be right to assume so, the more I read it the more it seems to mock the Roman Rite... especially in the description of our prayers... for someone to concoct this as an education tool for children... you would think they would research before making such generalizations... it really does shed some light on what the author actually thinks about us... whether he meant it in superior way or not... anyone reading it comes to the conclusion that "Eastern Rite is better!"

[dominicansoul]

also, as stated in the actual title of this thread, this is a [i]catechetical tool [/i]for children, not a tool for
"better dialogue" between Rites...
..which again, makes me wonder of the author's actual intent...

[Slappo]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 01:23 PM' timestamp='1281558238' post='2156039']
I will try to be as saintly as you are, and try to think that the ignorance of the Roman Rite displayed is purely innocent, and not a barb against us, even though I can't help but feel I might be right to assume so, the more I read it the more it seems to mock the Roman Rite... especially in the description of our prayers... for someone to concoct this as an education tool for children... you would think they would research before making such generalizations... it really does shed some light on what the author actually thinks about us... whether he meant it in superior way or not... [b]anyone reading it comes to the conclusion that "Eastern Rite is better!"[/b]
[/quote]

A lot of people I know would think just the opposite...

"Oh those traditionalist eastern catholics and their incense etc... I'm so glad we have circle seating now..."

[Sojourner]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 August 2010 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1281558238' post='2156039']
I will try to be as saintly as you are, and try to think that the ignorance of the Roman Rite displayed is purely innocent, and not a barb against us, even though I can't help but feel I might be right to assume so, the more I read it the more it seems to mock the Roman Rite... especially in the description of our prayers... for someone to concoct this as an education tool for children... you would think they would research before making such generalizations... it really does shed some light on what the author actually thinks about us... whether he meant it in superior way or not... anyone reading it comes to the conclusion that "Eastern Rite is better!"
[/quote]
You should note that it is published by an institute affiliated with a pontifical university (St. Paul University in Ottawa). It's also written by an Eastern Catholic with a PhD in theology.

I do find it ironic that you would come to the conclusion that it teaches that the Easter Rite is better, since it goes to great lengths to repeatedly say these are two traditions that are part of the same Church.

I don't think I'm particularly saintly to wish to impute good motives to others. I just have learned through hard experience the other way that when I assume the worst of others, I am too often wrong. You know what they say about people who assume ...

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Slappo' date='11 August 2010 - 04:31 PM' timestamp='1281558661' post='2156051']
A lot of people I know would think just the opposite...

"Oh those traditionalist eastern catholics and their incense etc... I'm so glad we have circle seating now..."

[/quote]


this is true, too.. and those people are just as wrong in their attitudes as well...

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='11 August 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1281558994' post='2156061']
You should note that it is published by an institute affiliated with a pontifical university (St. Paul University in Ottawa). It's also written by an Eastern Catholic with a [b]PhD in theology[/b].
[/quote]



Now I really wonder what his motives are!

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Terra Firma' date='11 August 2010 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1281554971' post='2155949']
I guess I choose to believe the best about the people who wrote this, rather than impute negative motives to it without strong evidence supporting that view. I believe that is the more charitable approach.
[/quote]

Agreed. And also, like me, you have chosen to not shoot the messenger.