Modern Madonna And Child

[Dizzy]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1287444350' post='2180539']
Religious art is what it is, however that does not give an artist license to portray Mary in such a way that compromises her integrity or what we know to be true about the Mother of God. Of Sacred art (which is different than religious art) I have never seen any of the Mother of God I would consider boring. Thats like saying that Mass is boring, it usually means the person who thinks it is boring does not understand it.
[/quote]

I don't think this art compromises her integrity at all.
Anyone can paint or draw a picture and call it Mary with little understanding of who she is. Only certain people can perform Mass.

<3

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1287407601' post='2180330']
Third it.

The artwork is amazing, I'm just not sure how I feel about it as religious art... something about the look on Mary's face... she looks kind of jaded. I wish we could see her whole face and that she looked more serene or something. (Maybe that's just me, though...)
[/quote]

This is what I felt, also -- particularly about Our Lady's face. On the other hand, I can understand the desire to illustrate her humanity and weakness. The artist wants to portray her as a young teenager who has just had a baby. And to superimpose that on top of what that means in the modern world. She did have to move her life to another country, also. A certain amount of pain is ... to be expected? In one way, I can see the pain and uncertainty reflected in Mary's eyes as having some pro-life value. How many young mothers could identify with that look? Yet, Mary pulled through.

Still, it grates at me. I don't want to see this difficulty. I want to see the joy at Christ's birth. I want to love Our Lady, and I want to love and worship Christ. And I feel like Mary's humanity -- the way that it is being portrayed her -- makes that tough for me to do. But, I can see where the artist was going. I am interiorly conflicted... Maybe that conflict is the feeling that the artist was trying to create in us? I dunno...

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1287407847' post='2180335']
While it is well made I do not like the way it depicts the Blessed Virgin. The symbols (such as a serpent on her garment) do not make sense, and it seems to try to infuse cultural relevance into sacredness in a way that doesnt work. Sacred art is transcendent, pop culture is not. I believe trying to mix the two is what is giving many of us uneasy feelings.
[/quote]

When I saw the serpent, especially it's rounded head, I was reminded of Aztec/Mayan serpents:

[img]http://charliechanfamily.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/aztecfeatheredserpent.jpg[/img]

From there, I went to human sacrifice, and then to Our Lady of Guadalupe, and the pro-life movement. The serpent made sense to me, especially in light of my thoughts contained in my previous post.

[Luigi]

I like it.

"it seems to try to infuse cultural relevance into sacredness in a way that doesnt work. Sacred art is transcendent, pop culture is not." .... Renaissance art, considered some of the greatest Church art ever produced, was very much bound by the culture of its time and place - it's fourtheenth-century Italian pop art. It's just that we've received it as the best
example(s) of religious art, so we expect all religious art to look as if it came out of fourteenth-century Italy.

[Micah]

I dunno about emo silly sally. She does look like a teenage girl sort of, but it just makes me feel protective, which is alright since I already [s]attack[/s] pray for people who diss Mary.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Mr Cat' timestamp='1287421995' post='2180397']
Its just a christmas card... not an icon of veneration. I think some people are taking this way too seriously.

A friend and I were talking about the serpent on the robe, she and I were agreeing that it's sort like a symbolically the great demon being terrified by the new infant. At least, it looks frightened to me.

I really appreciate a lot of different kinds of art ([i]it's the artist in me[/i]). Architecturally I have even enjoyed [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture"]brutalism[/url], which my mother to this day argues isn't artistic as much as its an excuse for poor design. To understand my sarcasm you would have to understand my mother and father's.

While I agree it doesn't fit in with traditional Catholic symbolism and style it's definitely a mixture of different themes in a new way that seems beautiful to me. Phatmass has one of its founding foundations on that cord, literally.

Catholic artists through the centuries depict the images in the theme of beauty that exists at the time, I definitely feel the artists did this. I think to dismiss it because it doesn't look like the "[i]traditional[/i]" images of our lady is a bit closed minded, considering its a christmas card.

BUT this was the kind of discussion I was hoping for, so mission accomplished.
[/quote]


[quote name='fidei defensor' timestamp='1287426288' post='2180421']
I like it because it portrays Mary in a human way. I've seen it mentioned that she looks funny or what have you, but how do you think she really looked, in everyday life? Did she stand around, hands folded in prayer, with a halo? No. She lived, like us. I take issue that everyone seems to believe that religious figures basically stood around their whole lives looking "good."
[/quote]


I didn't exactly have the same issues with it as Adam. I never expected that anyone would actually want to venerate the image. I really do like the artwork. My only issue is focused on Mary's face. I have no problems with her being beautiful, or showing some sort of anguish (but I generally associate that with crucifixion scenes or when they "lost" Jesus in the Temple). As a mother, holding a newborn infant, I would expect to see more joy and contentment; even when times are difficult, that child brings you unspeakable joy. It bothers me that I can't see her whole face and she seems devoid of joy. If this is a Christmas card and we are supposed to be celebrating the birth of Our Lord then why does His Mother look so jaded and depressed?

Just sayin'.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' timestamp='1287506498' post='2180716']If this is a Christmas card and we are supposed to be celebrating the birth of Our Lord then why does His Mother look so jaded and depressed?[/quote]I honestly don't see any of it...

I suppose between the projections of sexual tension, depression, aggravation, and everything else it reminds me of what my philosophy professor told me about art. Art reflects as much the artist as it reflects the viewer of the art.

I'm flabbergasted I am doing this for a Christmas card, but lets compare and contrast...

[center][img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dfR_xG2hpmw/Sl56ITjDO1I/AAAAAAAAF-A/IsoD7JrFAIk/s400/Our_Lady_Carmel.jpg[/img][/center]

This ([i]traditional image[/i]) image DOES appear jaded, depressed, and quite old... Which is a FASCINATION since Our Lady would of been a young teenager when this happened. But its sort of the artistic liberty and license of the artist to express it in their own way ([i]some artists even include themselves in images like the nativity or crucifixion[/i]). Which raises the question, even if the first image was jaded or depressed how does that make it bad? In my opinion, it doesn't...

So the only conclusion I can come to is that people are hesitant to like something new, even if a Christmas card... just in case.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Mr Cat

[Socrates]

[quote name='Mr Cat' timestamp='1287444089' post='2180537']
WOW!!! You think the image is sexually attractive in some way? Serious problems dude.
[/quote]
Seriously. Grow up.


The studiedly messed-up hair falling all over her face did look like the artist was going for a fashionably "sexy" just-out-of-bed look (and I don't mean as in pornographic, pervs). I'm just saying the general look of the face I felt didn't do much to convey supernatural holiness and purity, imo. The look of the face just said "cute teen chick," and nothing more.

I think religious art should draw the viewer towards reverence, and contemplation of higher realities, which this particular image largely failed to do imo.

I'm not offended by the picture, and I've certainly seen worse in religious art. I just personally found it a bit tacky. Sort of the visual equivalent of a cheesy pop-rock hymn at mass.

I was asked for opinions, and gave mine.
Responding with childish personal insults is completely out of line.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1287509892' post='2180732']Seriously. Grow up.


The studiedly messed-up hair falling all over her face did look like the artist was going for a fashionably "sexy" just-out-of-bed look (and I don't mean as in pornographic, pervs). I'm just saying the general look of the face I felt didn't do much to convey supernatural holiness and purity, imo. The look of the face just said "cute teen chick," and nothing more.

I think religious art should draw the viewer towards reverence, and contemplation of higher realities, which this particular image largely failed to do imo.

I'm not offended by the picture, and I've certainly seen worse in religious art. I just personally found it a bit tacky. Sort of the visual equivalent of a cheesy pop-rock hymn at mass.

I was asked for opinions, and gave mine.
Responding with childish personal insults is completely out of line.[/quote]I asked a question, you have given me an answer... In the grown up world we learn that girls aren't sexual objects and just because your attracted to them doesn't mean their trying to attract YOU. I don't see it at all... what you claim to see. But it is your perspective, which makes me wonder what your frame of reference could be.

To be fair I find most of your input to most of what I write completely out of line and childish, so it's fair that I reply in same measure. But I am glad that your so not offended by this art that you opted to not express how not offended you are.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Mr Cat

[CatholicCid]

This thread is fun.

I actually like the face. I thought it contained a look of, perhaps, awe or joy. She's not smiling wide, showing her teeth, but has a "wow, I'm holding the Son of God" look.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Mr Cat' timestamp='1287510585' post='2180737']


To be fair I find most of your input to most of what I write completely out of line and childish, so it's fair that I reply in same measure.
[/quote]
Eye for an eye, baby!!!

[let_go_let_God]

To me her face shows that of exhaustion and joy. She is holding the Son of God but also being 14 - 16 years old and taking care of a child full time is going to wear on her.

God bless-
LGLG

[Jesus_lol]

If we are talking about historical accuracy, how come she and jesus are still being portayed as caucasian? they most likely werent.

which makes talking about how much more "real" the older paintings are a bit silly. they show Mary as a woman looking twice her actual age and likely with completely wrong pigmentation and facial features.

[MithLuin]

I immediately thought 'deviant art' when I saw the image. Something about the style - I guess b&w ink + coloring, with strong influence from video games/anime. So, wasn't surprised which website it was found at.

I must admit that there is little to nothing about the image that says 'Mary' to me, though if I got it as a Christmas card, I'm pretty sure I'd figure it out .

I think that part of what is 'missing' is the nuance of facial expression, but that is likely due to amateur art vs more professional offerings. I don't see anything wrong with the picture, but it doesn't strike me as particularly devotional, either. It's obvious the artists put some real effort into it, and they certainly did a much better job than I can (see the flockdraw thread for proof....)

The knee-jerk 'I don't like it!' reaction to anything new is a human response. We like things we've seen before and that we can comfortably identify. I'm not saying no one is ever wowed by a new song on the radio [I distinctly remember being blown away the first time I heard the Eagles sing [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-q7Mih69KE&feature=related]Seven Bridges Road[/url] ], but people are more likely to say, 'Turn it up! This is one of my favorites.'

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Mr Cat' timestamp='1287509821' post='2180730']
I honestly don't see any of it...

I suppose between the projections of sexual tension, depression, aggravation, and everything else it reminds me of what my philosophy professor told me about art. Art reflects as much the artist as it reflects the viewer of the art.

I'm flabbergasted I am doing this for a Christmas card, but lets compare and contrast...

[center][img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dfR_xG2hpmw/Sl56ITjDO1I/AAAAAAAAF-A/IsoD7JrFAIk/s400/Our_Lady_Carmel.jpg[/img][/center]

This ([i]traditional image[/i]) image DOES appear jaded, depressed, and quite old... Which is a FASCINATION since Our Lady would of been a young teenager when this happened. But its sort of the artistic liberty and license of the artist to express it in their own way ([i]some artists even include themselves in images like the nativity or crucifixion[/i]). Which raises the question, even if the first image was jaded or depressed how does that make it bad? In my opinion, it doesn't...

So the only conclusion I can come to is that people are hesitant to like something new, even if a Christmas card... just in case.
[/quote]

Well, to be fair, I don't especially like the look on her face in that image, either. You can google dozens of Madonna and Child images where she looks serene and happy. The artwork may be amazing, but I just don't feel like that sad look is a good reflection of the birth of Our Lord. Even with hardships those are THE BEST moments of motherhood. (Trust me, I've been there four times!) There are huge moments if joy all throughout your child's life, but that surge of love and joy you get when they are newborn is unique.

Maybe it does reflect on me. My days with toddlers and grade schoolers are stressful enough as it is, when I look at the Blessed Mother with her newborn Son I want to see the same joy on her face that I have on mine when I've got a newborn in MY arms. I guess, bottom line, the look on Mary's face doesn't make sense to me. It seems out of place.