Christians Being Persecuted/discriminated Against In The Usa

[BG45]

I keep reading Lilla's "micro aggressions" so this caught my eye, keep it cool Harvard, with your re-enactments of Black Masses utilizing real Satanists.

[KnightofChrist]

And if you honestly believe all that you just said about people simply being weak and not evil, then you should watch the ish that spews from your mouth on these topics. You practice the judgment virtue to an extent that makes you come off as a gigantic beesh. Practice some Christian charity in these areas that you have a hard time with and say a prayer to the Blessed mother to help you avoid the thoughts that lead you to calling people who use contraception as misogynistic neanderthals. These thoughts will color your actions and how you treat people.

 

In this thread you've made up things she said that she didn't say, and perhaps you've done this elsewhere so maybe you're upset at your strawmen or strawfemaledogs. And in any event calling some one the b word really makes you loose all credibility as an advocate for charity. 

[Nihil Obstat]

Is this what Phatmass is now? Catholics being torn down by other Catholics simply for reiterating Catholic morality?

[CrossCuT]

Calling people misogynistic neanderthals is not part of Catholic morality. 

 

Quote from pg 5

 Attention male and female neanderthals: Human beings are not things.Don't make me pay for your misogyny. 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2014 by CrossCuT

[Lilllabettt]

But how do you know they are objectifying each other? Thats what Im asking. I dont believe that contraception is an automatic entry into the objectification fast lane. I think its very very circumstantial.

 

And if you honestly believe all that you just said about people simply being weak and not evil, then you should watch the ish that spews from your mouth on these topics. You practice the judgment virtue to an extent that makes you come off as a gigantic beesh. Practice some Christian charity in these areas that you have a hard time with and say a prayer to the Blessed mother to help you avoid the thoughts that lead you to calling people who use contraception as misogynistic neanderthals. These thoughts will color your actions and how you treat people.

 

Do I think objectification happens? Oh yes. More often than not. Do I think its because of contraception in the sense that its presence is a light switch you can turn off and on...no. I think people can be objectifying without contraception. If your intention is to use someone for sex, then it will be objectification with or without contraception. 

 

So, CrossCuT, the thing about objectification is it happens. It's not something you have to will.

If you do something that is objectifying another, you have objectified another, whether you consent to the objectifying nature of your act or not.

Its like racism or sexism.

You may be unaware that you are doing it

You may not want to do it

But - You may still be doing it.

Still I'm not sure what you're real argument is.

Let me ask you - can you give me an example of contraceptive sex that wouldn't be objectifying (doesn't attempt to forclose the future possibilities unique to the person)

 

 

p.s.I think where charity is concerned, what is most important thing is to be generous. It seems on this thread you have revealed a very narrow view of what makes people "good." that is something to address if you are striving to be a Christian.

 

I keep reading Lilla's "micro aggressions" so this caught my eye, keep it cool Harvard, with your re-enactments of Black Masses utilizing real Satanists.

 

Do you know these are the same folks who were behind the Satan statue in Oklahoma?

I live in Oklahoma, they want to put in a Satan statue.

I come to boston they want to have a black mass.

Coincidence???????? or am I the chosen one.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Lilllabettt

[CrossCuT]

And in any event calling some one the b word really makes you loose all credibility as an advocate for charity. 

I realize that, but people on this site are horrid monsters most of the time when discussing these things and Ive had way worse things said to me by all you who tout your Catholic Morality. So ALL OF US can practice some good Catholic Charity. I freely admit that I do, its something I work on. But good Lord almighty Lillla has a strong history of just being a jerk on here. 

 

But it seems that as long as youre upholding catholic morality, you can say whatever bat poo crazy croutons to people. But the second anyone calls you out for it its "Wow youre so horrible."

 

Lame. 

 

It is 100% possible to express your thoughts on this matter without calling people neanderthals. 

 

Ps. I also realize the irony of this coming from me since i just used a similar tactic. 

Edited May 8, 2014 by CrossCuT

[KnightofChrist]

I realize that, but people on this site are horrid monsters most of the time when discussing these things and Ive had way worse things said to me by all you who tout your Catholic Morality. So ALL OF US can practice some good Catholic Charity. I freely admit that I do, its something I work on. But good Lord almighty Lillla has a strong history of just being a jerk on here. 

 

But it seems that as long as youre upholding catholic morality, you can say whatever bat poo crazy croutons to people. But the second anyone calls you out for it its "Wow youre so horrible."

 

Lame. 

 

It is 100% possible to express your thoughts on this matter without calling people neanderthals. 

 

I read up to horrid monsters and then I stopped reading. 

[4588686]

I read up to horrid monsters and then I stopped reading.

Well, just take a break and try again.

[Nihil Obstat]

I come to boston they want to have a black mass.
Coincidence???????? or am I the chosen one.

Yer a wizard, Harry!

[Lilllabettt]

 

But it seems that as long as youre upholding catholic morality, you can say whatever bat poo crazy croutons to people.

 

Maybe you should try it? 

 

Objectifying others is a very unevolved way for the human creature to live. neanderthalish. Do you disagree?

[4588686]

Maybe you should try it?

Objectifying others is a very unevolved way for the human creature to live. neanderthalish. Do you disagree?

Maybe. Maybe not. However you have yet to posit any sort of argument that gets you from your premiss about contraception and possibilities to your conclusion that contraception is objectifying.

Or even bother to spell out who is being objectified.

[4588686]

Literally every interaction that you have with somebody forecloses some set of possibilities for that individual. You're provided zero argument of how you get from 'x' forecloses a set of possibilities for somebody to 'x' objectifies that individual.

. .
:----:

[Lilllabettt]

Literally every interaction that you have with somebody forecloses some set of possibilities for that individual.  You're provided zero argument of how you get from 'x' forecloses a set of possibilities for somebody to 'x' objectifies that individual.  

 

So ... you mean the sliding doors scenario.

It seems obvious to me that there are important differences between a deliberate decision to try to limit another person's future possibilities and the incidental limiting that is a consequence of the passing of matter through time and space.

Every time we do something - an act, even an intellectual act, there is a set of possible outcomes. right? (Unless you are into string theory/the multiverse. please can we not go there right now)

 

But when someone chooses to have contraceptive sex, they are deliberately trying to reach out into that set of possible outcomes that are direct and proximate to that act. Trying to control the possibilities that are flowing from the other person's autonomous decision to have sex. You are reaching into their future.  which is itself a violation. But the tagline of contraceptive sex is:

 

I will have sex now, with this partner, but only if it does not mean their future could include being a parent of my children.

With the result being that now you are not having sex with a person, you are having sex with an object you have "designed" to be ideal for your use.

 

Objectification is a self-feeding process. Dehumanization is a cycle. You can't dehumanize someone without dehumanizing yourself. When one person objectifies another, the consequence is that their "target" also objectifies themselves. Self-objectification. Additionally: the act of giving someone else permission to objectify you results in an objectification of them ( which is why I disagree with feminists who say that women sex workers can be empowered in what they do), which in turn results in objectification of self. So as to who is objectifying who ... both partners are. objectifying themselves and each other, whenever they agree to an act which is by its nature objectifying (e.g., contraceptive sex).

Edited May 8, 2014 by Lilllabettt

[CrossCuT]

But when someone chooses to have NFP sex, they are deliberately trying to reach out into that set of possible outcomes that are direct and proximate to that act. Trying to control the possibilities that are flowing from the other person's autonomous decision to have sex. You are reaching into their future.  which is itself a violation. 

Since you  have earlier dismissed a religious connection to your argument, I dont see how swapping what I did in your quote is any different. With NFP, the same thing is happening. Sex is occuring with the deliberate reason to reach into the set of possible outcomes to control the result. You are reaching into the other persons future. 

 

 

But the tagline of contraceptive sex is:

 

I will have sex now, with this partner, but only if it does not mean their future could include being a parent of my children.

 

That seems like a pretty big assumption. You have no idea whats really going on in peoples minds. You can make a guess, but that is not the same thing as knowing. Besides, like I have mentioned previously, a couple who is married, devoted, love eachother etc who use contraception to delay prenancie due to financial reasons are not thinking that way. They WANT to have a child with their spouse, just not at the given time which is identical to NFP. However I fail to see how NFP in your context is not objectification since the same manipulation of outcomes is happening. 

 

Could you explain how the manipulation of contraception is different from the manipulation of NFP?

Edited May 8, 2014 by CrossCuT

[Fidei Defensor]

I would say that NFP takes advantage of the natural period of infertility while contraception artificially creates it.