Trads - what's up with ya'll

[Peace]

33 minutes ago, fides' Jack said:

I have a hard time with just Christian music, though, even outside of the liturgy.  I tried getting into it a little bit when I was dating my wife initially, because she doesn't listen to much secular music.

Ya'll met on Ave Maria Singles. Admit it.

[fides' Jack]

2 hours ago, Peace said:

Ya'll met on Ave Maria Singles. Admit it.

It would be closer to the truth to say we met on Phatmass.  But that's not true, either.  She just introduced me to this place.

[Anastasia]

Aloysius,

It seems to that our boring “academic” exchange uncovered the actual answer to the topic. It is:

“Why on earth something that does not need to be explained should be explained?”

While talking to you about the Liturgy I caught myself on the endless “explaining” -- > and the realizing “why should I, isn’t obvious?”. I do not mean “isn’t it obvious to you” but to the hypothetical people of p.4 and 5. No wonder my head was spinning in the end.

“Boring discussions” are boring to read so I thought to share a few stories from the real life which illustrate the clash between two worlds.
 

Story #1, from the Orthodox forum.

When the world became aware of the words of the Pope re: “homosexual unions” there were discussed on inter-confessional boards as well, Orthodox - Catholic. Initially Orthodox did not believe the news yet after the Pope remained silent they believed; as a result they concluded that the Pope deviated from the Church teaching (using a reasoning akin to “one cannot be a bit or partially pregnant”). Some Roman Catholics tried “to explain” Popes words and behavior, very much like it happened here on Phatmass but the Orthodox response was “Get real, the whole world understood very well what the Pope meant – it seems that only Catholics didn’t; we do not need your explanation because we understood, only Catholics need them”. The Orthodox conviction comes from many things but to list them would take the whole Gospel so I will leave it here.
 

Story #2, from my own experience as an iconographer.

There was a Catholic party and someone mentioned that I am an iconographer. Some woman said “I am an iconographer too”. Naturally, I wanted to know the details like where she has studied. A woman said “I have studied on iconographic courses for one year". Although “iconographic courses” already sounded not to promising “one year” was promising compare to “a weekend course”. Alas, it transpired that “one-year course” meant “eight three-hours sessions”. I am giving this example not to judge the woman but to illustrate the attitude which the Orthodox defines as… actually, I better give the Orthodox attitude instead.

As one our best iconographer used to say, it takes at least a decade of an actual labour to begin understanding something about icon painting. It is not about grinding pigments and guiding as it is taught in the West.  It requires being an artist and a theologian and – most importantly – a life in the Orthodox Church, within the Liturgical tradition because icons cannot be understood without a prayer and in the context of the Liturgy. Most crucial, there must be a right attitude of a holy fear b.o. the responsibility. It is really scary to begin painting the Face of Our Lord (I remember I was literally shaking when I began). It is also an attitude of a service and self-sacrifice. You labour like a slave over an icon, trying to be available to the Holy Spirit, literally lying on the floor in exhaustion after a few hours of painting.

In one word, our (Orthodox) attitude is “I am for the icon, not an icon for me i.e. I am a servant”, “I dare to paint an icon, God help me”, “I have to sacrifice myself for an icon” while the attitude of those who establish “icon painting courses” and those who study there “an icon is for me to try”, “I am” etc. This is of course also the fault of those who run those courses.

Typically, when an Orthodox iconographer speaks like this she is blamed of “being not nice” to those who want “to try paint icons”. “How can you deny us a right to learn to paint icons?” Well, you can try to paint but do not call them “icons” and yourself “an iconographer” because you are not.

Note again, an Orthodox iconographer speaks of the awful responsibility of an iconographer; one why “tried” speaks of his or her “right” to try. Again, a clash of two worlds; the wounded ego does not allow a Westerner to even hear the Orthodox argument.
 

Story #3, from Japanese martial arts.

Somehow the same Westerners do not try to come to dojo and, after a few lessons, begin developing their own way of handlining the sword. If they try, they would be thrown out, without of the slightest care of “being nice”. After they learn everything i.e. the tradition as such and excel in it, they may experiment, although at that point it would not be an experiment but an organic expression of the individual style within the tradition.

Well, if it is so in the martial arts and the same Westerners somehow are eager to learn their tradition, why it should be different in the Church? If some dude who can handle a sword a bit approached a grandmaster and says to him “I do not like what you are doing, let’s try this” he will only make a fool of himself and no one will take him seriously. Analogically, all those “let us try this” in the Liturgy only reveal their own ignorance and “me-me-me” agenda.
 

Now the conclusion. This self-oriented/narcissistic attitude plus the desire “to be nice” (that is also a part of a spectrum) are, in my opinion, the true moving force behind three examples. The same force of a narcissistic attitude hijacked the Vatican II. Only self-entitled philistines can demolish Church art, swap it with the ugliness and feel very proud of themselves. Of course, the are proud because THEY did it, often covering it by “we are doing this for the good of others”. This is why I believe the two worlds, of “me-me-me” as a focus and of tradition (where a focus is outside of “me”), cannot be reconciled.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Anastasia

[dUSt]

On 10/29/2020 at 5:43 AM, Aloysius said:

of course I know from the attitudes you have expressed it's not at all your intention to go to point 5;

Did someone say Point 5!?

 

[chrysostom]

I will say I am impressed by the fact that we are now on page 6 of this and everyone has been nice.

Good job internet.

[Guest]

On 10/26/2020 at 7:44 AM, Peace said:

Peace has no love for Trads

[Ash Wednesday]

On 10/29/2020 at 5:44 PM, fides' Jack said:

I have a hard time with just Christian music, though, even outside of the liturgy.

Reminds me of this episode of King of the Hill